[00:00:00] Narayan: Hi, you are listening to the new space in podcast. A biweekly doc show that exclusively brings insights from the Indian space activities ecosystem. I'm your host nine, the co-founder of India's first space focused think tank spaceport, Sarah. Guests on the new space in depth podcast, help you understand space activities related macro and micro trends within India, in all aspects, including space history, local industry space, science, technology, evolution, law, and policy art, and more, the new space in their podcast is supported by Dassault systems, a global leader in providing businesses and people that collaborative virtual environments to enable sustainable innovations.

That's all system solutions, support startups, small and medium scale enterprises and original equipment manufacturers in developing disruptive solutions for space [00:01:00] lunges and satellites.

[00:01:03] Balakista Reddy: Uh, good afternoon. I am. . Yeah. international air and space law. I unregistered and outside of university of LA Hyderabad.

So my fascination towards space, uh, technology and more particularly space law started way back in the early nineties. So I did my, uh, eliminate. Do I have studied part of international law subject. I know space law, but the real beginning, I can say that, you know, it began, it started with the, uh, knew when I joined my infield PhD program in January, then, you know, I took the space.

Law is one of the, a compulsory subject and they know I have undergone and I know. Got a good grade in the space law that encouraged me to do further studies and research in the space space law. So in 1992, early 1992, when I recollect. So firstly interaction with Dr. Custodian [00:02:00] Langan happened in about one and Billy, where I was interacting with him about the space law though.

Uh, then he has, uh, you know, I mentioned that why not? You do something under space law. We don't have know space slotting, what a space law is going to, uh, the future sector, legal aspect of space is going to have a lot of scope. So why not? You start something, you know, thinking of. Line that was the motivational point.

Our beginning point, I can say that in 1992, when I met Dr. Custodied and then that time he was a chairman, uh, Israel. So then I started my research and started digging some material, looking into the, and I started, uh, my books, particularly in January. Uh, there are two books. Uh, again, he decided he did by myself with my gross profit set of years, money and processes.

1994, we started the project called, uh, airline policy in [00:03:00] India. This is a book which, you know, we edited that tape. And then in 1996, again, you know, we published the one, uh, compilation, and that is the international, the recent trends in international space line policy. This is the. Uh, first of its kind, I can say the third world, uh, point of view, third world literature.

So that, uh, in that, uh, book, actually it is a combination of articles from, you know, uh, noon, Lissa, noon, and our great, uh, you know, scientists and legal luminaries from across the world. So. To say a few words about this book, actually. So the maximum contribution being a student at that time, I was a research scholar.

So I made the. Uh, maximum contribution in this book. Not only that, but, uh, the, uh, uh, work which I took was a challenging thing. I started writing about the space law and policy in India. Of course, when I thought about space line policy in India, with the inspiration of where [00:04:00] Dr. Custodian and Ghanaian, my teachers, nothing law, I knew law was dead.

So then how to go about that was my challenge. Then I did some research and looking into the other, uh, countries space. I know some legislations, you know, the developed countries like United States and other countries. And then I started customizing how India can be held. So holy purpose of this article was that, you know, technology was growing and the technological developments are happening, but unfortunately, legal aspects, nobody touched in the space sector.

That was the thing. Then, you know, I looked at it, you know, I studied, I struggled, of course. And then I finished my article and space line policy in India. When I wrote this article, of course I am in, turned in over from history to other, other things. But the one important thing I'm proudly to collect that no, in 1996, when I wrote this book.

So I mentioned about the policy, other things, but final distinct is I mentioned that, uh, up to now, there is no [00:05:00] competence who are a specific law dealing with the space activities in India. With the rapid development of activities I'm quoting from 1996, my article friends. So, uh, however, with the rapid development of activities in space, there is a growing need for enacting new domestic law and interacting divergent regulations, dealing with the space and space related matters, such large.

So that is the proposal I made it. Should define the role of department of space and different governmental nongovernmental agencies in space matters a procedure for adoption and implementation of space programs. Regulus, now space safety of launch and space flight. The question of transit or foreign space objects through national space.

The question of benefits, uh, liability issues, incidents, you know, protection of intellectual properties. We now have benefits all these things. I moved the idea of why. Indian space, Lockwood, you know, evolved water. I know that was the thing. I, and today I'm [00:06:00] happy to share with you all that, the issue, the things which happened in 19 94, 95, whatever, you know, and, uh, I, the last three decades, my only one thesis only in our writing is, uh, India needs pay salon.

So because technology, Colleen India is doing well. There is no. We had that know space and space Mongolia. Now all these, I know new projects, which India is doing extremely well in technology, but unfortunately we don't have even today a legal sale in Israel. So in 1992, when I discussed with Custora Rangan, uh, Saturday, why not?

You have an illegal cell so that, uh, you, you know, uh, space, uh, persons who are into that, they can. Like, you know, domain experts. That is the point . But you went today. Of course, we don't have enough space. I heard some antics operation, somewhere, no legal, [00:07:00] uh, one or two legal people they recruited, but you know, it's still the dreamer.

I don't know what should I say, but having a space, a loss sale in the store, not it feel full. So it is again, high time, but a reindeer. Who have especially space liars who can really help and recent controversies. We all, we already know seeing that was controversy, all these things. So, okay. Definitely one and a unfortunate thing about these great countries that scientists are doing extremely.

Uh, working with they're made India is a proud country. There is no doubt, but unfortunately the scientists who are representing legal Copa saying that there are the things that is where we are having a problem. That is my reservation to, you know, uh, again, you know, uh, scientists too, who are part of the lawmaking process, uh, you know, certain, uh, issues, challenges, which we are encountering, of course, talking about this inspiration, this book.

One more further impetus I got after writing this book quiz, [00:08:00] uh, this was reviewed by one, you know, wipey 30 under space law. You know, this, uh, uh, review came in, uh, 1997, uh, Erin space and from Netherlands where they wrote a lot on that, you know, like. Uh, reviewing the, this book kind other things. And finally they wrote about me like a professor already did good work and in all, but finally proud moment for an Indian is that the last part of this review was India can be congratulated that it has available not only an updated manual on space lines, policy, but also publication, which, um, uh, consistently reflects India's ideas and aspirations in the field.

And that is more than many. That is the, uh, review of course. Uh, we got from the Netherlands Aaron space, large handle after that. He had an outside after completing my PhD in Lino aerospace law. So then I joined in 2001 as an assistant professor [00:09:00] here in 2005. We, uh, created a center for Eden space law in 2005, since 2005, uh, NASA is doing lot of activities in the space sector, coming out with books, generals, organizing conferences and, you know, specialized courses.

Uh, including one course, I want to name apart from the teaching to a students at a little bit Elim level. I'm also, uh, developed certain courses, which specialized in. We always believe in NAZA that, you know, uh, today we are living in a multi disciplinary discipline world. So law alone won't work technology alone won't work.

So that's why, what we did here that. A multidisciplinary approach combining Lavita technology, Lavita management. So we designed one masters in the space technology and telecom loss. That's a two years master's program way back in 2014, since then, you know, uh, this program is continuously, we are running and a lot of, [00:10:00] uh, senior professionals, including the scientists from Israel are joining and they're getting benefit out of this course.

That's. I can say that, uh, you know, he's happy woman, the whole object I gained in, when we talk about aerospace, uh, in different sector in general, and more particularly a space technology space, law or object is, uh, the, uh, aerospace out of space education at the doorsteps of the. With the affordable cost.

That is the important thing. So, uh, that's the reason why we are to develop these masters program with online onsite, you know, combination of, uh, online classes, onsite classes, uh, this is a work we are doing and discourse of course, picked up very well today. You know, a lot of science. What part of this course and NASA, we have a flexibility of reviewing the course every two years the year assigned whichever the course, uh, we, eh, you know, uh, develop here.

We involve the industry. People. We involve the. [00:11:00] Bureaucracy, for example, when we designed this course, we involve, you know, scientists from Israel and of course, you know, uh, legal luminaries from other countries also participated in designing these courses. So similar with other courses also. So this is a space line, the last two, 20 years, I can say that, you know, I'll we producing.

Uh, more than they know, like combining aerospace, defense law, our in space law, we have like 1200 to 1250, you know, obviously mostly, uh, including people like not in, you know, we as again, you know, proud student of an, I can say that he did this course and he's actually, you know, uh, popularizing the, this kind of things in abroad also.

So I mean to say that a lot of, uh, industry, uh, exposure to people, bureaucrats are now part of this program. So. Uh, this program when uniqueness about these things, is this a space data? If you look at the , you'll find the, you know, United nation data [00:12:00] directly has, uh, mentioned about Dean Alsace courses in space law.

That's the, uh, fraud thing. Again, I want to share with you all that, you know, the unit UN as recognized and Alsop space local, so saying we are doing it. T-Mobile so, uh, coming to these in the last five, six years, again, uh, we are, uh, not only developed the content and specialized courses, but to be, I I'll, again, I'm offering these courses as that, uh, seminar courses, elective courses every semester, and you know, not all students are participating and, uh, nowadays.

We have groomed a lot of students in the field of space line. Of course, some of them are still very well in abroad also, including the international organizations that have taken up jobs. So that's a proud moment when it comes space law. I ended up many other universities, of course, not only in ulcer, but it is a time for us to come on these kind of courses and.

Spreading of [00:13:00] education knowledge in this space law, because I am a lawyer and law professor, I'm talking about that. So it is a need of doubt that we should, uh, popularize these, uh, legal aspects of space, space technology. That's what, uh, we are trying. And we are trying to these, uh, regular courses, masters level, a little bit level, and also this masters program in space and telecommunication laws.

I can, you know, Um,

okay. The recent past lots of new developments happening in the space sector, particularly private participation that happening in the big green, the space sector in India, but unfortunately the legal, uh, we don't have. We know though there are policies, but those policies are in a BitSight pieces, you know, not comprehensive thing.

So do I ma I said, uh, you know, 30 years back, I moved at idea having a near for space law, but this got momentum in the last five, six years. Again, I can say that because of the million billion dollar [00:14:00] investments are going to come in this space specter, but how investor will come and invest when we don't have a, uh, W which can give guarantee to, is the investments return.

That is a whole problem with India. So, uh, all these years through my writings, I'm, you know, trying to popularize to convince the authorities in the government sector, that there is a date is a need of the hour. If you look at, you know, my article. Almost to tend to, to allow articles, you know, different names in the space related, uh, no lie in India.

I published in a different page papers and edited books. So the need for recipes lies because of the investments and you know, other countries definitely, you all know that law, you know, uh, today disputes are coming. Why, you know, we need law means we have moved. Technology phase two commercial phase. Okay.

Technology, all these five, six decades. I know India has deep well, and today we are doing all these big projects, but now I lost two decades. If you look at our more particularly in the [00:15:00] last 10, 15 years, the move from we know technology at our to, you know, saying, you know, commercially around private participation commercialization is happening.

So in the UK, we had to sustain this industry would come and sell private parts patient. Definitely the. We do have a specific law dealing with deep space activities. And in sharing, like I said, in my article, I quoted way back in 1996, that how large would come. So even I I'm, again, those are first in town recently coming out with the space act we designed, of course, I'm part of that space activities build, which was bending, you know, uh, since 2017, but it is a need of the art is that, you know, government should sure.

Uh, these, uh, legislation of course, the 2017 bill again. Lots of new developments, which are happening last three, four years. I think it is a time to re-look, uh, you know, that legislation keeping in view of the recent developments, more particularly in space and you know, [00:16:00] other new developments, which are part of this thing.

So I strongly agree. Do you know, a need for space law because when disputes comes today, I said, again, you know, from technology to business, we moved, a lot of commercialization is happening. We are doing business not only in India, but you know, abroad also when businesses that litigation is going to come.

If litigation comes, you all know, friend city is a liar. You know, they're just duty is not to make law their duties to interpret. They do only interpretation of life lies there with no law. How are we going to look at, you know, these a space disputes? That is a big question. So that the keeping these things in mind, I think the time has come for us to come out with the legislation, if these activities, whatever we initiated last, you know, four or five years, more particularly, uh, to strengthen those things are to continue that thing, uh, you know, uh, Uh, participation are renewed giving confidence to the private, uh, people who are investing that.

That's [00:17:00] what I said. Again, hues investments are willing to come, so to give confidence, uh, to provide confidence to the private sector, I think it is again, need of the word to come out with the law that law takes care of everything. And. Uh, role become easy. Uh, that's what I said. They, they will interpret and they will resolve the disputes in stop making law.

It is not their job also. So keeping all these in view, I strongly, once again, they know, uh, they come on that government should clear the space. Equities will, whatever that thing of course, parliament has a sovereign power to make any changes they want. But only thing is that it is, uh, uh, I think somewhere new.

Uh, revision is required once that is there and they can clear the, uh, whatever we initiated to continue that in CAS. And I think, uh, the space act is, uh, again, sending it out that way. So other important aspects and see if we will get last five, six years, uh, developments, [00:18:00] uh, particularly private participation in these various segments, spacing, dusty, and lot of employment opportunities are going to come.

Particularly we are talking about the, uh, new areas started.

uh, you know, scope is there for employability or for, you know, in, in generation, I can say that startups say no government as a policy. Last of course it began in 2014 with the prime minister at Ford speech, but at the sectors also, now they are initiated the startup activities are in Cision specific.

That is annoying or lagging behind that. But, uh, uh, like, uh, uh, we can say that. Uh, digital India, Spain, or startup India, all these things say, you know, I have to link with the space sector. So when we talk about a startup India, standup, India, you know, uh, the, these things, how to come into the space sector.

Uh, I think, uh, one more again, [00:19:00] uh, the startup thing, when we talk about a lot of, uh, policy level, we are discussing, but when it comes, it is, uh, uh, it is not taking the. So there are certainly no missing links in the space sector. When we talk about the space startups, particularly one area is that, you know what, you know, life is very important in any way that it is a space, our defense, our ear, our anything, because the kind of company, which you are Reno, uh, thinking depend on that the rest of the legal issues comes with that.

It's a little P R Reno private company, public lump, a limited company, although so legal knowledge is very much required for any. That is missing. Of course we Nelsa rhino again, I I've heard courses on, you know, uh, startups. So these mill missing links, if we can provide, I think a startup industry in the space sector also will come in, be great and provide good employment.

There's a lot of scope. Is there for rhino employability in the technology front? Of course there is no doubt, but you know, as at a policy [00:20:00] level legal aspects and other things, also a school only thing is, uh, we have. Identify, what are the issues? And once we identify that we can address that and we can, you know, uh, take up that then really the space sector will move out of that Indian context or globally.

If you look at, you know, there is a thing I'm not saying it's true. Also 19th century west belongs to Europe. 20th century was belongs to America, 21st century century. When I say a sentence or two, you all know that, you know, it is a way that India, not some of the countries. So India is going to play a great role.

In the karma DF nations in the years to come, there is no doubt, but we are to work on this gyno policy paralysis, some legal Lakanal. Then definitely India will be going to be the leader in the space sector in the years to.

One question comes when, you know, we talk about the space education space related, you know, like private parts, which knowledge is [00:21:00] there. There is going to be a lot of employee ability in the space sector in opportunities are going to come. But one day thing, you know, space education. One is a, you know, employability is one thing and education is important.

So awareness signed up. our weirdness in this space. Education is very much important. We, as a big country today, we have 1.3 billion at 1.4 billion population. But how many colleges, universities, there are four courses, not only legal aspect, we legally, no space lies a different thing, but even technology or that related things.

I think one issue we should address is that, you know, so much. Development is happening in the space sector. I think we need to create that positive environment for the education is a one, you know, important thing. So schooling level say, you know, college, all those things space education is a one. Once you have education, next question.

Come to what about employability? So, okay. If I do this course that goes at, you know, that engineering, whatever so imply there is a [00:22:00] no doubt employability. Going to be there. And a lot of employability creation is there because now private sector is coming in big way, private sector. See that, you know, if you have multiple talent, then they will take that is where, uh, you know, the person should have some technology exposure, some legal exposure, some, you know, contract, all those.

So I think, you know, Uh, different aspects of a, you know, a space sector and more particularly employability. Uh, there is more particularly multi-national corporations and particularly the private parts patient is going to come. Uh, the reason, but still, it may take some time, you know, we have to wait, but parts, you know, Rudy's open today.

You know, art is open, so we all have. Do you know, go in that direction. Definitely. Definitely. I'm very positive that, you know, employability is a not issue in the space sector. You know, they can choose, you know, different parts. Of course, when, when we, when I say legal aspect today, most of the companies, now they are hitting, you know, legal people to give legal.[00:23:00]

It is true. It is going to be weird, true with the space sector because space business is going to happen. What people are investing in this space sector, first lies so important. I can tell you any investor who is going to invest it. He will say that, you know, whether I'll get, you know, my, you know, investment.

How we like it, you know, investment rate and whether, you know, that that is where the, uh, anything to start. When I stood, you know, start with the legal, uh, question, what is the law illegal, you know, guarantee I'll get legal advice, legal, guaranteed, those skins. So lie is going to play a very important role in the, uh, the sector.

And the employability is going to be when, you know, um, is going through. I think employability is going to be a very positive thing. I am too, but years to come, it is a, you know, it's going to take some time, uh, to have a more employability in the space sector. India is going to play important role in the years to [00:24:00] come our 21st century.

But what it did in the, uh, so far, that's the question comes last since the beginning of Copa since 1958 and 59, particularly. So India did lot of work in, you know, choosing, uh, many areas, India. Uh, normally we take, you know, third-world approach. It's not that India, uh, we're only one country, but beyond India, there are 70, 80 countries who, you know, uh, w w they will, they treat India as a big brother sort of thing, whatever we do, we are to keep that in mind, you know, other people also.

So if you look at the, you know, the India contribution in the, you know, international space policy technology, I think India has done, you know, a lot of. Since the beginning of 1959, why I'm saying 1959 for first to Cooper's committee was started in 1959, where India, uh, took holistic approach of various issues.

When I say various uses, for example, a prohibition now for military use after space, though, initially, if you look at history of space technology [00:25:00] out of space, you know, age is basically at all. So, uh, for the October, 1957 NCL phases, it was. Based on race rather than the space, you know, space domination of the so-called superpower.

So, so India Keno along with some of the developing countries, uh, took the holistic view on various aspects of the space technology to mention like provision of military. You know, I use this of outer space. Okay. Outer space is meant for peaceful purposes. If you look at the existing space, More particularly the, uh, outer space treaty 67, which I considered is the DLR.

It is the charter. And I stopped this baseline is based on, you know, outer space, treaty 67, where, you know, it says that outer space is, they know. Provence of maintain the space should be used for the benefit of mankind. We equal equally all nondiscrimination basis, all these things. So India highlighted, you know, this from time to time, you know, in [00:26:00] various forests, whether it is the, you know, United within the United nation are outside the United nation.

More particularly when I say within the United. It did great job in the, you know, you encompass. So whether it is a military radiation, you know, outer space where a lot of parties are peaceful uses of outer space. If you look at our world, most of the Indian, uh, space programs are meant towards the peaceful priests.

So. Spears can be used for peaceful purposes, various, uh, the UN general assembly resolution. If you look at, from, you know, the old development of space law, we can say three phases in chili from, uh, 1957 to 63. If you look at India, actually participated in all those. So I only know India is in jail stages.

It was the military hegemony. That was a prime thing. But, you know, to work on that India persistently consistently viewed that in, you know, space technology should be used for peaceful purposes. That was our thing, particularly[00:27:00]

space technology. So then, you know, we always believed that benefits of space technology for developing countries how's space technology. And if you look at that, When the Indian space program started in a lot of a position came because being a poor country. So people are suffering with hunger power T Y to spend so much of money in the space sector, luxurious sector.

That was the norm idea we hired. But thanks to the prior first prime minister, convince the authorities and they do. He said that no space is going to be used for common man. And of course, today that's where we took the real that you notice benefits of space technology for the common man. And today I can tell you, you know what, uh, If I like, you know, when a statement of Sarabhai, what was, uh, India's vision and that space technology, if he says that, you know, we don't have a fantasy of competing with the advanced countries, we have [00:28:00] convinced that technology is going to help for the poor.

That's why we started our programs. I ended up when it comes to this technology, we have none to use the space technology. Uh, common man benefit. And he said we don't have fantasy up competing with the advanced countries, but I can tell you today, we, you know, reason, we went a step, a head didn't want to, you know, Sarabhai visualized it today.

Definitely though, fantasy of competing, we competing with, you know, advanced countries. So India has, when it comes again, technology, we always have believed that technology. you know, Carmen man, $9. So I ended up that things is a more cooperation and developing countries, India. I said, they know we're in a cooperation coordination, convinces.

These are our approaches, you know, when it comes to. Uh, the United nation, not a Corpus India, along with other developing countries will be engaging or a leader of the developing countries, India. So whether it is the military, geostationary, [00:29:00] satellite arbiter, rhino relating to the enormous and protection.

All these things say no DBS, dedic broadcastings athletes. I know issues relating to remote sensing. I said, dog. So assistant rules that, you know, It's fierce technologies should be used for a benefit of humankind mankind. So this was a review when it comes to playing role in international contexts are more particularly, uh, individually in the United nation, nine Cobra's committee on peaceful uses of outer space since 1959.

So that's the India's view, uh, under Cooper's, uh, When we talk about the space technology and a lot of scientists today working in the technology field, I said, you know, they are doing a great job and they made India proud country. But one thing, you know, uh, lacking is that the, the, you know, there is a saying that saying is that ignorance of law is no excuse.

And so, uh, you have to, even though you are a scientist, but you are to look big law. So that's [00:30:00] where, you know, keeping that in mind, you know, uh, the, uh, center for aerospace defense. Uh, the object, which I just noticed said that, you know, taking space education at the dose steps of the needy with affordable cost.

So to substantiate my statement, what I did, so we popularized, we are in offering these courses meant for the working people, men for the scientists. So scientists. I should take these courses, uh, not only outside, but education, legal education is very much need so that, you know, uh, they can do their job in a better way.

So that's a later space like education, you didn't the legal education. Like I said, ignorance applies ignorance of space. Law is no excuse for a space scientist. This is a message I want to convey that. Uh, no, I'm not saying that you became a legal luminary, but at least, you know, uh, basic knowledge because you are.

Some of the scientists who are part of these policy legal, you know, making. So if they have some knowledge in the space law, they can do better job [00:31:00] in the new India. Ultimately country can benefit you at, uh, uh, knowledge in the space. Uh, a lot. That is what the message, our appeal to my, you know, scientists there, you, people are doing.

Uh, wonderful thing in the technology, but you know, a smaller pill from our is that you also should know some basics of the space law so that the coming policies, legal related issues, you can look in a holistic way rather than the, you know, piecemeal. So that's the message I want to you with the scientists.

If time permits, if you know, pocket parameters, please do some courses in that space law.

[00:31:47] Narayan: thank you for listening into this episode of the new space in debt podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share this episode with anyone you believe will enjoy listening to it. You'll be able to find the new space in their podcast, in [00:32:00] any of the podcasting platforms that you may be using, including apple, Google, Spotify, YouTube, and others do subscribe to the podcast in case you want to receive new episodes automatically.

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