[00:00:00] Narayan: Hi, you're listening to the new space in their podcast. A biweekly doc show that exclusively brings insights from the Indian space activities ecosystem. I'm your host nine, the co-founder of India's first space focused think tank spaceport, Sarah. Guests on the new space in that podcast, help you understand space activities related macro and micro trends within India, in all aspects, including space history, local industry space, science, technology, evolution, law, and policy art, and more, the new space in their podcast is supported by Dassault systems, a global leader in providing businesses and people that collaborative virtual environments to enable sustainable innovations.

That's all system solutions, support startups, small and medium scale enterprises and original equipment manufacturers in developing disruptive solutions for space [00:01:00] lunges and satellites.

[00:01:03] Dr Mukund Rao: My name is . I'm a geologist by profession. I did my bachelor's and master's in geology in 1980. And later on, I did my PhD in remote sensing in GA.

Um, my journey, my professional journey started with space activities in 1981. I joined this room or the space application center in the bath or the last 40 odd years, 41 years to be precise. I gathered many milestones and many experiences, which I want to just share and bring about my own learning that I have done.

And. Uh, try to give a roadmap of what things, the, what way the things have developed in, in specific areas of space, where I work. And also remember some of the wonderful people with whom I work along the journey. So [00:02:00] I think my earliest memory of anything related to space when I joined this role is , uh, you know, I, I joined the SAC.

You throw in 1980. And in 1983, the first an anatomist seminar, the national natural resources management system seminar was held in Hyderabad. And that was the first time I think, where the, the idea of a national system for using remote sensing and creating a management system to help governance in the country was sort of visualized and out outlined by.

I was a rookie at the time, just out of university and, uh, with, uh, Y eyes, I still recall watching a, on the stage in the conference, in the inaugural very dapper person, very smart looking, uh, with his high bands, with a nice belt around it. [00:03:00] And he gave an outline of an anonymous. Even today. It is really.

And sometimes I make my own assessment of how much of that vision have we really achieved? The fundamental part of the vision that he outlined was that he, remote sensing has to be really meaningful. It has to be a part of the management system or the national level. And he outlined a vision saying that to work on this national system of management support that remote sensing can provide.

It is a user agencies that have. While the technologists from Israel can provide the technology support. He outlined in 19 83, 8 user oriented concept with users use remote sensing and get the benefit and help governance in the country. I still recall him in his 30 minute speech that he gave on that day.

Uh, you know, he had a very typical style of pumping the ground when he spoke with [00:04:00] passion and, and he, and sometimes throwing his own. And that is etched in my memory. And today also I believe that if we want something has to be meaningful, it has to be by the user agencies, except that the user agencies today are much different than what the user agencies were outlined in 1983.

So to me, that was the mantra, a user oriented, remote sensing application support program, which helps the nation, which helps the country or in the governance and in the man. So this is, this is one of the earliest sort of aged memory in my mind. And that's how I then started my space activities of, uh, uh, following the seminar or during that time, uh, very soon, uh, I was exposed to one of the best computers that Israel brought the VAX 11, 7 80 at the time in space application center with the image analysis system.

Which, uh, if you look at it today, it looks very rudimentary, but I can tell you, I was damn thrilled to work on those systems [00:05:00] at that time. And being a geologist, never having worked on a computer, uh, this was something like it. Techno exposure to me, thrown into the techno world of VAX lemon, scent, sanity tapes, disks, and so on.

Um, I and my colleague one, Mr. P S Tucker and Mr. , who was my boss at the time and the mentor who I really value even today. Uh, we quickly took up the study to study the city of on the bud using Landsat images and digital image processing to find out what has been the growth over time. And what are the changes?

I think this was the first to the digital image analysis for work for an urban area in 1982, uh, we showed the chain. From 1975 to 1982 on the bug. So we published a paper and that really opened up a lot of ideation about digital analysis, supervised classification. It's accurate. It's inaccuracy is the spectral signature analysis, [00:06:00] how change detection can be done.

So, so we collected all of the experiences and we wrote a beautiful paper, which we presented in the ISP conference that was held in Delhi. And that was one of the earliest digital exposure that I got to bring digital analysis and digital, uh, uh, applications very soon. Uh, Mr. . I introduced us to the concept of GIS.

Uh, it was in 19 81, 19, uh, where NCST the national center for software technology in Mumbai. Uh, got the first conference on GIS by getting, uh, some, uh, one lady professor Diwan marble from Ohio state university. And we are the exposure to that first, uh, GIS workshop. And then we understood this GIS saying that, okay, now you have images which are.

You can also make maps, which are digital maps. I've never seen in a digital format at all. So we started looking at information systems of, uh, combining remote sensing and maps. And we did the first experiment called the mineral exploration information [00:07:00] system, using satellite images and maps by digitizing them manually, uh, involving the government of bootstrap.

And this was a very small experiment, very manually done by gridding grid based a GIS. And, uh, we did an analysis to identify how minerals can be characterized by merging different types of information, very simple study, but we have a thrill to us saying that now we can combine maps images and do some integrated analysis factorial analysis.

We did, we did some principle component analysis on the business data systems. So very soon we realized that the power of information system is what is going to be the future. And this was way back in 82, 83 times. And then, um, Mr. Took these ideas with the Mr. Chairman, Ms. and why a surgeon who was the scientific director at the time.

And we established a special task force for a natural resources information system. And I will a member of the task force and a key [00:08:00] contributor to defining the vision of a national natural resources information system, which will support the NNR. So the management system must have an information system backing it.

So, so that was how it was really visualized at the time. So, so this brought us to a concept saying that, okay, if this is the thing, there are some case studies to build these applications. Very soon, we got the commercial software from, from, uh, outside about GIS and he made processing and we did some very classic studies for various districts.

I still recall the one of the district with data about them. We did a district plan actually at the time, the district planning in 1985 was becoming very popular with the

Regina was bringing about. So we did the district plan at that time and a very comprehensive GI study. Even today, the reports are available. It was very systematically done and very comprehensive. And the district collector of battle pool was very taken in. And he [00:09:00] said that he would like to sort of utilize this for his, uh, governance activities.

And we were very happy to have who was the chairman of the. Come down to in a conference in district. And he personally handed over the whole system of database and the computers and everything to the collector. So that's how we started this concept of doing GS applications. We then followed it up for Bombay metropolitan region.

Uh, donor pool, we did for wasteland development, planning and variety of GIS applications. By the time it was seven to eight years into my profession and we had a team of people and I think we got all the exposure that was required and, and the motivation to take up many of these activities. One of the things we learned at the time was that unless we standardized the day.

You know, the GIS applications are really not going to grow. You can't have unformatted unstandard non matching data set for, for, we brought out the first GS standard in 19 87, [00:10:00] 88 times. Freebird still. And I think that formed the bedrock of most of our knowledge that we got about GIS applications, remote sensing applications, how to standardize them and how to create large data business, which can help in applications in the whole thing.

So even when this applications were being done in many districts were taken up within his throw and outside of his role. By late eighties. Uh, the concept came up as to where the, where the GIS software available. If you had to do this in the whole country, do we in, does India have a GIS software again, Mr.

and Cale Majumder, who was with him at the time. And I was associated in a very, a key manner. Uh, we took up the design and development of software very early times. Tell you that, uh, we didn't have operating systems at the time. Uh, dos had just come in, uh, then Xanax was there. There was no graphical user interface, uh, X windows, which was the earliest of the windows had just come in.

But [00:11:00] then under a technology transfer regime, we contracted two parties to develop this software. And those two bodies were wonderful software companies. And one in Bangalore, one in Hyderabad. I still remember those two gentlemen, one Katie Schreder and Kay Shanker. They're still very active in the software.

Brilliant minds. And they came out with such algorithms and such unique solutions to solve the problem that we develop the Sergio software by 89 90. And it was available. Uh, it still had a lot of journey to make before it became operational and product oriented and so on. But, but in those times when the world had just started GIS software in one or two places in the United States, in ESA, In Canada, India also brought up software.

Of course, within this role, there are many ventures of GL software development. One by RSCC. There was one what we did, and there was some other trials and fun, but then these all allowed ideas to fructify and come up into different [00:12:00] formats on the whole thing. And then they do industries, Pegasus software and the Schreder and the EDA software and the Shanker they took on this technology.

And then they marketed the product in the whole time. But, um, I think, uh, somewhere down the line, the support that is required from the Indian market in Indian users, uh, was not forthcoming. Uh, they are all foreign software. Cox software was very easy to do to dampen the spirit of the, these two industries to take up the marketing part of it.

And then, uh, over time, I think it, it, it, uh, uh, subsumed into the larger framework of, uh, commercially available. The learning of algorithms and the solutions and the graphical user interface for the first time in the APS in this rodeo was fantastic. So talk to me also, it was great to do the design and development part of it and do the testing and learn many of these things, which once again, For the geologists, it was something like a [00:13:00] totally new experience to look at this point of time.

So I think these all allowed us to learn something about GIS. Very beep the knowledge base we created was very, very deep. We had a team of about 20, 25 people who are excellent in doing many of these activities. And I think that was the biggest outcome of all the GS activities that. Very soon. I think I moved to headquarters, the third quarters from the board sometime in 1994 and one activity.

I very clearly remembered which I took up at that time. Amongst many others is the establishment of the UN center for spatial space technology. And in the Asia Pacific region, uh, it was, uh, a competitive, uh, award, uh, China was there, Indonesia, Malaysia, India. And we had to really struggle to make all the proposals and get these centered to India.

And it was a great experience. Uh, so of course, under the leadership of at the time mg tender shaker was there, who was [00:14:00] spearheading many of these activities. And , uh, I haven't really long associates association that we worked on this on the United nations side. We worked very closely with Nandi Jacinta, Leanna, who was the.

Are you an office for outer space affairs? Are they in a building who was also in the office? And ultimately we established this center in, in, in India. Uh, we established all these structures and the organizational frame that it required and the operational education program for the particular tryna. I was one of the key persons who shared it.

So suddenly I moved away from many of the information system activities to organizational structuring, policymaking and other things. When I came into headquarters, in the sense . Another activity, which I very vividly call in in the mid nineties to, uh, 2000 timeframe, uh, was, uh, with the launch of IRS satellites.

And specifically I one scene in 1995, uh, I think India's presence in the international regime had to be increased. And, you know, we have a not very active in, in rifle. [00:15:00] CRS IEF ISB RS, and many of the Fooda. So, so India and we got the CEO's plenary in India in 1998. And, uh, under the leadership of , I was given the secretarial charge to pick up the establishment of the CEO's secretary adhere and organize the plenary.

That was another exposure that I got that for the first time apart from doing information systems and understanding the Indian and toss off different. I was exposed to the international region, working with 48 space agencies, specifically with the NASA ISA Jackson. Uh, team and moving around in international circles to do various types of cos activities.

Uh, we founded the first principles of an international global observation strategy I got, which is the precursor to the geo, which is now a prevalent in the country today. So the concept of IGAs and the concept of a global observing strategy with space agencies come together and [00:16:00] collaborate to develop a global.

Was founded when India was a leader of CRS under topical strong, and we established the multilateral instruments that are required and the agreements required for that. And that really exposed us to a lot of international activities. And family. When we looked at this, we saw that many countries had remote sensing policy, alteration policy, and Swan India did not have remote sensing policy.

So, and at the same time, I least one seat with the highest resolution was being questioned within the Indian defense frame, whether it can be distributed to users and you know, or should it be in the restricted domain. So we took up the job of creating a remote sensing data policy, uh, the first remote sensing data policy of 1990.

And I took the lead for developing the policy framework, getting the cabinet approval and Swan and. Uh, resolutions up to five meters, uh, in the public domain, uh, for distribution and one meter and that some restricted committee clearances activities. So the concept of policy and international collaborations and [00:17:00] international presence for India was a big way.

Uh, one of the experience that regard by mid mid, uh, 2019 or 2000 timeframe, uh, another thing I must tell you is that, uh, in those days with all these experiences that we have. Uh, India was one of the leaders in our iteration. It matched the world's best civilian satellite in 19 95, 98, 2000 timeframe with Iris one seat Cartosat one and Swan.

So, so we had structured a program which you, which gave us the world's best tag in auto operation at that time in 2000 timeframe. And we're very happy to sort of see that Iris once the data was globally being received, Gardasil data was being globally received. 16 ground stations were receiving it under.

And almost a 60 to 80 crews of revenue every year being collected. So it gave us a thrill that we could go global, you know? So, so from an international presence, to be able to globally merchandise our products globally, be making our products available and services available. I [00:18:00] think that region started by, by, by the, by the late nineties and the 2000 timeframe.

And that was very exp uh, you know, rich experience that we got. One of the postal experience that I have is having traveled to slough. Because of all these things in 19 95, 96 timeframe, that was really enriching experience to see the glaciers and go right up to the north pole. Just one degree shot of the north pole on helicopter flights and seeing this Walmart station.

Not a great experience. I think for personally, for me, uh, coming into many of these activities in that I, uh, this one, uh, I don't know the one incident I want to share with, uh, my own knowledge. In 1999 after the 1998 nuclear explosion, there are the world, a national technology summit organized by the government of India and various science departments were called in to look at how technology needs to be looked at in, in, in the, in the future, uh, years and what [00:19:00] national technology systems need to be developed.

And Dr. was called in to make a very high level. Uh, I was one of the key persons to working at helping to him to make the presentation. Uh, he, we were all sitting in touch, uh, in palace hotel in Delhi, uh, just one day before the conference and the presentation for the being organized with the slides and so on.

And Dr. The was very meticulous, you know, every slide that to be very good, very new, very fresh, no repetition of materials and phones. So a team of two, three of us were there. I was very actively involved in that suddenly. Yeah. Uh, what is a new thing? We are going to tell, tell the community and the ministry will be there.

The, uh, cabinet will be there. And so on. He suddenly looked at us and said, can we go to the moon? This was May, 1999, May 13th, 1999. He asked us the question. Can I go to the moon set? And all of us ran back to do the calculations, the laundry team, the satellite team, and all. And we came out with one [00:20:00] slide.

Saying, can we go to the moon that was 1999. And when he presented it on that day to an audience of 300, 400 people, ministers, cabinet secretaries, and so on, there was tons of silence. Can India go to the moon 1999 timeframe? And it was really a very, uh, sort of a very exhilarating experience to watch the audience on that.

Stunned. And at the end of the presentation, which covered many things and only one slide on, can we go to the moon? Very nicely articulated, but Dr. , he got a ton bring ovation. And that triggered the concept of the January mission. At that time, then the tender and proposals are generated, et cetera, blah blah.

In 2008, this mission came up. But I just wondered to tell how this came up and what were the methods of doing this whole thing? Uh, very soon, I got into another very major activity of defining a long-term strategy for region called the operation 2025 strategy. Uh, this was under [00:21:00] the leadership of Dr.

George Joseph, another excellent, brilliant scientist of Israel. Uh, rather the father of Indian remote sensing program in that sense. And Dr. and a few of us, uh, he set up a committee under Dr. Joseph. I was a member secretary, and we drafted out one of the best strategy reports that we could do with. And the strategy was simple, uh, create missions which will help national development, which will then anonymous goal.

Number one, number two, prioritize our toleration in India. This was in 2001 timeframe. It still is the goal written down very clearly saying that please prioritize the toleration. We give a strategy of steps to be taken up and down. And the whole thing. In fact, we created a manifest of 54 launches to be done in 25 years, different types of stuff.

Oh, he's so sad. Multi-spectral Cartosat ocean sat in front, the manifestors there. And if I look at it today, sometimes I wonder how much of that manifests have we really covered? So one can do an analysis, maybe a research on that aspect also. But what I want to highlight is that at [00:22:00] that time we were matching the world status in state of the art in remote sensing, plannings, traveling.

International collaboration being one amongst them. And then we could create our own strategy, our own policies, our own drive for applications and, and trust what is required. And we soon realized the privatization of automation is very much required way back in 2001 timeframe to visualize this was great in that sense.

And many of these strategies are still now coming up for, for in that particular. And, and the importance of doing standardization that was also very strongly felt. And we brought out the in anonymous standard, which once again, ice rated, uh, which is the bedrock of now GIS standards in the country. Uh, in fact, the anatomy standard was drawing much of this material from the 1989 standard that we are developed in the earliest part of the GIS work.

And today it is one of the standard which even everybody uses. And there are [00:23:00] still, the newer version is yet to come in into the activity of the thing of this one. So many of these forward looking activities, way back in the nineties, two thousands. We were capable of doing, and I feel very proud to be associated and, and working in many of those applications in the whole thing, somewhere in 2005, uh, I shifted my gear, uh, went into the private sector after working 25 years in Israel and in private sector, I was very keen to develop business solutions and commercial solutions in the modern scenario.

I joined a startup, created a startup with one of the Hyderabad groups and later on headed Esra and then did varieties of GS applications in the commercial business. You know, one of the largest projects in GIS, the Delhi state spatial data infrastructure project in 2005, six times. Costing 120 growth was scripted.

Uh, one and achieved by me in the private sector company in the sense. And it was one [00:24:00] of the best projects, which was visualized at that point of time. Um, we also took up many projects across the world, in UAE, in Japan, in India, on various. GIS and remote sensing solutions. And also in Singapore, for example, the Singapore eye map, which is today, one of the best jazz portals, the technology and the solutions have been developed by the team that I led in Esra.

At that point of time, the APD RP, the augmented power restructuring program of the government of India, which had the backing of the GIS applications in the commercial. Was also developed in that particular activity when I was in the private sector in holding. So just to say that, uh, while there were questions being raised with the Diaz is really profitable, it cannot be commercial in Swan.

I think we developed a lot of solutions by which we could make it commercial and, and show that it is possible. I just told for the preparation of the stock, I was trying to see what would be my score of revenue that I would have clogged in the different projects that I measured up to. And I came up with something like 200, 300.[00:25:00]

Uh, what a period of 2005 to 2012 timeframe, which is seven to eight years, which was phenomenal of those times, you know, to be able to do that sort of a business and different types of solutions into those activities in the sense, very soon as I was getting into this private sector in a big way. And so on, I was called back by the planning commission to define the natural gas.

So chairmanship, the planning commission set up a national task force. I was a member secretary, and I drew the concept of an again, coming back from my ex. Understanding the heavens and then RMS the national resources information system, the standardization of data, the applications to be done, pulling all of that.

And seeing that if the country has to really benefit from this technology, it must have an actual GS by which content should be easily available for the whole country. Somebody must worry about the content and full-on and application should be made available in the private sector. So that citizens. Um, Garmin services and private sector services can come up from GS and we've come out with [00:26:00] a beautiful jazz policy and submitted it to the government.

I had to spend almost three to four years doing various types of equities and that particular activity. Uh, I also want to mention that, uh, subsequent to my Israel tenure, and also working in the industry, uh, myself and some colleagues under the umbrella of national Institute of advanced studies did a lot of

Trying to visualize our far sighted thinking capability that we developed in this role at that time in late nineties, into mid 2000 tens, trying to visualize what should it be for the future. So we did some very good studies on what should be in their space policy. And we have come out with reports on that.

We even visualized an is basically a system in 2014 timeframe, and we published the. Which today's being topped off in 2022 timeframe saying there has to be a federal system of you throw that has to be a private sector system. And that has to be an academia and system it's still in the works, but we can [00:27:00] sort of understand that these are things that are required and if it is not done, the nation is going to be left behind as far as the advantages of space that is there.

And we also did in 2015, we, we articulated the national imperative of doing a human space flight. It had not yet been approved at the time. And we published a paper, we submitted it to government and to many others under saying, what are the technical imperatives? What are the economic imperatives and social imperatives of an Indian human space flight program, you, and today it is very meaningful to see.

A human space flight program is not a one-off event. It has to be a series. It has to be continuum. You have to have a vision for the next 50 years. If you want to really take a few months Facebook. I mean, that's what we identified in that. We also did a very good study on the challenges to the Indian remote sensing system in 2018, 19 timeframe, you know, with the lesser number of IRS satellites with, with the private sector in the world, going to submit a resolution.

With the analysis, ready data available in the [00:28:00] world with open portals of Sentinel Landsat and all there are tremendous challenges that we see for the Indian, the modern sensing, uh, ecosystem and the whole thing. And we brought out some of those challenges. So our ability to assimilate the experiences of his through and try to formulate what the nation should think about.

We were able to do these studies and collaborate with some other researchers and bring all the reports into those activities. And something's going to do is a one of the last activities, which I really recall very fondly is just recently in the last four years, I was tasked by Tata trust to pick up an initiative of taking the benefits of remote sensing, GIS technology to the final farmer.

And we conceptualize the concept of an egregious, uh, drawing upon all the experience that we have. Removing everything else from the technology. Is there something that we can bring to the farmer and benefit him? And we did a project in and showed how the technology remote sensing the technology of [00:29:00] GIS and data analytics can all help ultimately at a block level to give block level advisory to the farmer.

So, so bringing all these capabilities. Uh, we are very confident that at the time, very confident that if remote sensing space technology and alterations are to be really meaningful, uh, Uh, it has to be driven by the private sector now. And hopefully some of the things that are happening in the country should drive it in the direction.

And ultimately it has to benefit the final beneficiary, which is a citizen. If citizens can benefit from remote sensing and GIS and data analytics, nothing like that on the whole thing. So I think these are some of the experiences that we have gained and gained in the last 40 plus years of my journey.

I've got, there are various types of words and people that I have met and. Journey's done to various countries and different activities. Oh, I have led the many activities in the international. Uh, I was, uh, the [00:30:00] first elected president of the global spatial data infrastructure association in 2003 to 2006 timeframe.

Uh, I have led the IAF activities as his vice president and the ablation committee. So the exposure that I got in my journey I think is, is tremendous. And I think that is what makes, uh, ISRO organization so different. It allows you to do or what he want, of course, within the dimensions of the organization.

And, um, if you're good at it, I think it gives you the tremendous motivation that's required. That's the learning that I have had at least two levels in Israel. Uh, and I'm sure it must be keeping up the same moment and even now today and the whole thing, but, uh, uh, and having worked with some of the best people, knowing that minds, understanding how preferred having things, help us, the routings, how Dr.

Uh, how some of the international space agencies, uh, thing, uh, Dan golden of NASA, the interactions we have had, uh, Sean O'Keefe, uh, [00:31:00] ISA chief, uh, um, can achieve, uh, so many people have them on the whole day. I think your exposure to understanding human relations, human activities, human relations, technology, interfaces, interactions, tremendously give you the personality and the boost that you've acquired.

And I think that is what. In all these years in that sense. And some of the best people that have worked some best bosses have had starting with the air, that scooter was one of the best people who gave me the understanding of systems. What did the system, I didn't know when I came as a geologist, but he gave me the understanding of the systems and systems analysis, but the judges have a physicist to the.

Everything has to be questioned. Everything has to be questioned. And the land cell phone working with him is a great pleasure. Even today, allow interacting with him in that sense of, uh, different, uh, gender shaker, a fantastic boss, a go getter who could get anything done, you know, and work hard. And the whole thing very calm mind.

Strategist. I learned a lot from [00:32:00] him in working in the whole activities. I think my boss he's my PhD guide my mentor in that sense of this. You're fantastic person and learning from him, just being close with him and working with him and walking behind them is a great experience in the sense. And of course, working with many others, this one, you know, like in planning, commission, Sam Patruda in, in the national knowledge commission and many others and so on.

And, uh, I also benefit my lovely team. You know, I always believe that. Good. Any Indian giving the motivation he will produce. Fantastic. And this is my experience when I did the projects in, uh, Bombay, uh, afterwards the slow GIS. Eh, Indians can do anything, but what they need is the right motivation, right?

Culture. If that culture motivation and vision, you can give them, I think they can, they can do understand. And that's exactly what I got from my bosses, the vision, the culture of influence. [00:33:00] So I think these are some beautiful things of my life and, uh, apart from many of the personal things that I have, but I think this shows the journey that the nation also did from early stages of handling digitally.

Coming up to going to the farmer and talking in different ways, different parts in the sense. And I walked one path. So this is my journey. Uh, it's lovely to share with you, all of you. And, uh, I really look forward to understanding the journeys of the other people that you're recording and the other part that they have taken, because from that also we can learn a lot.

So thank you. Thanks.

[00:33:41] Narayan: Thank you for listening into this episode of the new space in debt podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share this episode with anyone you believe will enjoy listening to it. You'll be able to find the new space in their podcast, in any of the podcasting platforms that you may be using, including apple, Google, Spotify, [00:34:00] YouTube, and others do subscribe to the podcast in case you want to receive new episodes automatically.

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