[00:00:00] Narayan: Hi, you are listening to the new space in podcast. A biweekly doc show that exclusively brings insights from the Indian space activities ecosystem. I'm your host nine, the co-founder of India's first space focused think tank spaceport, Sarah. Guests on the new space in depth podcast, help you understand space activities related macro and micro trends within India, in all aspects, including space history, local industry space, science, technology, evolution, law, and policy art, and more, the new space in their podcast is supported by Dassault systems, a global leader in providing businesses and people that collaborative virtual environments to enable sustainable innovations.

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[00:01:00] Dadhwal: satellites.

I am . I started my journey in space from space application center, uh, in 1983. So I was born and brought up in Delhi. Uh, then I did a BSC in botany that was 1973 to 76. Then I joined Indian agriculture research Institute and did a master's in plant physiology. And then 1978, I joined the PhD at Iowa. And after some discussions and the type of guides available, I decided to do a PhD on growth modeling of wheat, especially the [00:02:00] impact of temperature, photoperiod, and radiation.

I will bring this then, you know, that created my carrier letter. So sometime, uh, 1982 and 1983 early, I will have to find. Eh, team came to IRI, uh, if it was a campus recruitment. And then, uh, we were told that you can appear, I was in PSD 50 year. So that is the first time. Uh, I heard about satellite and tried in an interview.

I'm told those interviews were. Because the issue raised in those days was that why should Israel go to only one Institute? Not to legally. Anyway, so maybe January, February of 1983, there was an advertisement. So I traveled to and then [00:03:00] appeared for the interview and went back. So sometime in appre land or may I was offered a.

So I quickly submitted my thesis. Anyway, it was long overdue, five years and landed in on 12th, June, 1983, but conjoin, this is very interesting because for you to join, you should have a medical certificate. I had done my medical at Maulana Azhar, but they took, uh, almost 20 days to send the Saturday. So I could join a SAC only on 30th, June, 1983.

So the moment I landed and join our, uh, boss was Dr. Valdez side, uh, and the division was called long name aerial surveys, ground truth. And for two interpretation division. [00:04:00] So the, uh, so the first thing I was asked is can you forecast brown, not production? So I started learning about satellites at those days.

There was no digital image processing, so how you can have the FCC and of print. And can you visually identify groundnut uh, and then what happened? It's role was into IRS utilization program. So the IRS utilization program, uh, sometime in September of 1983, uh, an office order came where I was member of a team called crop production forecasting.

Uh, the PI was JS very hard. Who was the agronomist who, uh, joined SAC in 1970. Uh, there was [00:05:00] Mr. , another agronomist, one astrophysicist from PRN, Dr. and myself, but I was already, you know, familiar with these crop and crop production, forecasting modeling. So the first thing we decided was we want, uh, we were, you know, trying to get influenced that, let us go to Suda 10 of Saturday and do V8 for clustering.

We said, if you want to do it for casting, we'll go to Ariana Punjab and do it. So in December, 1983, myself, uh, took her open G traveled two and a half days and started doing field work for identification. So we actually use Landsat MSS data and digital classification to produce, uh, sometime in 1984, the first map of wheat crop in [00:06:00] Carmel, that actually picture appears in the dos annual report also.

Uh, but I'm told, uh, when the SAC, uh, went to professor Euro, uh, he told, what is this one district one? You have to do all state. So then the IRS UPC PF became a project like a large area, crop Anchorage. And then, uh, since we didn't have that type of digital facilities, I had to devise a statistical scheme segment based, which was also used by another.

For their global wheat forecasting. And then we did the first whole Ariana state by next year. Uh, when, again, uh, the team, uh, the sack management, uh, team went to chairman [00:07:00] professor Euro, is that what is one crop? You should do whole India and all crops. Uh, this is how, you know, a professor, you are all used to work and whatever you do.

You get the pressure back to do 10 times more. So from 1983, we went on, uh, since those days computer facilities were not there. So I used to spend almost one month each after rugby and Kareem in one of the RRCs regional remote sensing service centers. In 1986 and they got one new Molech system, uh, from Belgium, each one had the, you know, computer processing.

So for large area processing, we would carry big tips, uh, land up at Delhi, take a bus to the head-on and every place of trial will stop us that. Why are you carrying computer things? [00:08:00] Where is the. Uh, anyway, so we learned and we made, you know, longtime friendship with the RSC people. Uh, it went on, I also then, uh, started working for rice in Puri and Cuttack, but then, uh, we had to expand teams and finally this CPF team almost had, uh, 20, uh, Collaborators about 25 people in SAC, a total team of about 140 50, and the project was funded to the tune of almost two and a half crore per year by the ministry of agriculture.

It was a very, very, uh, I would say, strenuous work to ask for money, defend it, do field. Go outside sack, uh, [00:09:00] do the image processing and still produce the result within one month of the harvest. So there are many stories around that. One of the stories that we were in people, uh, deeply block and there, uh, we were doing fieldwork and it is.

So when the Jeep is trying to turn, it got stuck in the rice and you can understand up to your knee level, you have water there and your Jeep is stuck and you have to go out. Another interesting thing was we were returning in night on GT road. Those were the days of, uh, terrorism and there was shooting, uh, on the GT road.

Uh, it went on like the.

Uh, we were, you know, a larger team and I was helping out in a lot of such activity. [00:10:00] Then the ISRO started, wanted to do quantitative and wanted to do modeling for irrigation. So then, uh, we took up a project on, uh, you know, water. Estimation performance evaluation of irrigation come out. So the two projects which I took were where the mahi right bank canal, and the second one was the , uh, you know, doing field work for in may and January, January.

It is so biting cold in hundred one guard that you really have pain in your knees and in. May, if you were in Sudan guard and Hahnemann guard, there is so much sand that every 10 minutes you stop and you have to drink water. You can't see more than 20 meters. Uh, but that was very interesting. And the other part was, uh, we tried to [00:11:00] use a software is GIS, which was getting developed.

So by this time I knew a lot of crop identification, crop modeling. So the first thing, uh, I was inducted was into a ground segment committee for IRS Wannsee. So there the, uh, AIESEC teams and RSC teams and the payload and data software team would be in the out argue. Uh, Mr. Schiff kumara was the chairman who later on became the, uh, direct.

Yeah, it's rose satellite center. He was in before that. He also was the director, his truck. And then, uh, two things, which I distinctly recall is the first two IRS did not have the swear bank. And then, uh, I [00:12:00] did studies to indicate if you want to separate mustard from other crop and groundnut from other career crop without sweat band, you can't.

So this experiment was done. We brought out results. And then Dr. Nobel gon uh, et cetera, uh, we prepared a big report. Then I think they meant to professor URL. First, we had to convince Dr. George herself and she recurred on Kumar. Dr. George herself was head of sensor development division. And Karen Kumar was the, uh, in charge for designing these IRS camera.

So the issue was for bringing one sensor, they had to drop a band and the blue got dropped. We were not in favor of it. We thought it is important for it for swift collection. So those things went on. Then the another interesting thing which we could do was, uh, [00:13:00] when IRS, once he got launched, I could use multi date waves and do the national wheat for the first.

Uh, so, uh, the, what we showed was high temporal data compensating for the spatial resolution, and still you could do match the acreage. Uh, there are a large number of other events which went on, uh, so many interesting stories of field work and the issues you face in fields. And, uh, but in 1998 there was a part of reorganization.

They created what is called a division crop modeling division. So I had about eight, nine people for the first time we got youngsters [00:14:00] who later on, did PhD and still I'm working with someone. So we started a work on estimating leaf area, estimating, crop biomass, and many things, which I continue, uh, after the wheat work in 1996, uh, we were debating what to do next.

So we produced a proposal. Called Fasten. It was for multi crop nationwide. So we had long, you know, group headlong debates. Then finally the facade was forecasting, uh, agriculture with space and grew metrology and land-based, you know, so, uh, we spent a half a day and actually finding a good name for the project.

Uh, so the fossil project did not get really funded, quite some. So ISRO and the routine project went on. [00:15:00] Okay. The other part of the development was while I was doing all this, uh, 1989, I had, uh, a word of the Indian national science academy, young scientist model. So that permitted me to do some research.

So my whole week is for crop forecasting, Saturday and Sunday. I would like to do carbon cycle by carbon cycle is very important. Uh, there was one professor SK sinner of IRA, who was our teacher later on. He was IRA director. Also. He was a professor of plant physiology. So he had attended this Villiers conference of 1980 and he had once told me, you know, as plant physiologist, you should work on if CO2 doubles, what happens to plan.

So you must do carbon cycle. So our teacher, you know, so advice, but the good thing was [00:16:00] at that time, our director was should we promote color? So once I am morning and evening, he would call people and discuss many things. So after my have already called me and said, what you would do, I said, if you would permit me to get some student, I would like to do carbon psyche.

So he really sort of went out of. And then one professor AB water head of the botany department, and two students started doing PhD. They were not my student. They remain professor Laura's student and they did PhD on in botany, but on carbon cycle. Uh, so then we had professor of the PRL, who was the program director for the IBD.

So when he saw what we are doing, he said, I should come to the Israel geosphere biosphere program. So then I started the carbon cycle work. So like this, this [00:17:00] continued, I went on doing a couple of things, but one more thing, which I want to point out is when 1983, I came and my boss. Was Dr. Valdez. Hi, he was very particular about what you write.

And then he gave me one more job. He said there were 16 projects, eight were in SAC. So he said, you now produce a monthly progress report. So I have to go to each BI. Nobody will send a progress report. So I have to discuss with them and right. But that I had to learn. What to write for water quality, what to write for watershed?

What to write for forestry? What to write for even a sack was developing a passive parallel signal image processing system. So I have to go to KSR sculptor, who incidentally was my predecessor at IST as director. So I'd go to case Dasgupta and get his [00:18:00] monthly progress. So the learning opportunities were very.

And then the sad culture of having committee work. So I could learn many things about, you know, satellite technology, sensor image processing, you name it. It was totally beyond. You know, my, any training, the other part was because of our crop image processing. I was a member of the standing committee of software evaluation for RSC.

So all software developed by RSC had to go through T and D and then, uh, I would sit there and work. So I was trying to do, uh, from a botany, uh, no image processing. Formal education, doing a lot of crop classification using IMS L to write our classification code and sitting in the software [00:19:00] evaluation so much so that when the Punjab remote sensing center was set up, they didn't have staff.

So when the Wipro supplied them image processing system, I was sent from. To go there. And for four days we actually did the T and D and the acceptance test for the image processing. So I was fortunate that I could really do very large, other very important culture of his role was in that era. We as scientists, SC, we actually had the chance to make presentation to chairman Israel.

So when professor Euro came to see. An hour. We come, Paul, uh, I made a presentation on CPF then in between we had to make a presentation when there was a transition from professor, you are out to Dr. Rangan and Dr. Rangan [00:20:00] could, would not agree that with Noah on the amount of satellite, you don't get data for rice classified.

So far one year, every day, Noah picture, we took print out and put India grid, you know, square grid and marked traction cloudy, and then visited, uh, Bangalore on a Saturday and convinced him that without. You would not be able to do, uh, his argument was very simple USI, uh, for drought assessment, uh, you compose it all the NOAA images, some pixels will be there and then you can classify.

So we explained to him difference between vegetation index and identifying rice from other crops discrimination, which doesn't work with, you know, mixture of the signature. So very interesting. The other, at that time, uh, I wanted to do more carbon cycle [00:21:00] also. I'll come to it then sometime in 2004, April Dr.

Nobel gone, who had left the SAC to become director and RSC and RSA, he called me, would you go to their other one? I said, why? He says, no, no, the Dean of . So, uh, because you like academic work, I think you should go to, I said, sir, if you think I'm suitable and this would be my temperament, I will go. So within one week there was an office order that I was the Dean of the IRS.

So I went from SAC. So I left all the crop work. I had to eliminate us of reprints. And so many papers. I said to all friends here is you take all of that. I am not going out. So I went to, [00:22:00] there are, so there are the one was very interesting. Uh, we actually defended, uh, the international collaboration with ITC and extended the international masters program in geo hazards and do informatics.

So I did a couple. Visits to Netherland ITC also, plus I wanted to ensure that the students do more quantitative. So at IARs, we established five field observatories, one for runoff in sit, Lara watershed. Then one we did for measuring. Near rookie, then one we did for soil moisture in the forest. And then there was a project which I had been trying for seven, eight years to set up flux towers.

In fact, I spent [00:23:00] well, 14 years pleading requesting money for flux towers, but then we did establish flux towers in barcode. That is a Sol in Helwani with collaboration, with the Italian. Uh, that was a closed path in plantation, then it, you know, this March goes on. Uh, we also had a lot of projects for the first time because of the IGB we had with my colleagues of IARs.

We identified something like 45 PIs and we did the entire forest biome. Feel sampling six and a half thousand points. That is the only national, uh, bio-mass measurement, independent or forest department and the forest survey of India. Okay. Uh, [00:24:00] I also had the opportunity to be in the technical advisory committee of FSI work on India's national communication to UN FCC.

You produce the first soil. Uh, assessment of forest based on our maps and the surveys, we could also establish in teak, uh, flux, Stover. And when then I had to move to an RSC and not a C at that time for a year, I was associate director. Dr. German was director. Then he moved out. I became the director. So at an RSC, uh, I think we were able to do very, very significant things.

First. Uh, we operationalize the ingenious, so we really had a capacity to do [00:25:00] almost like 500 plus scenes on that day itself. We could process. We also were in the process. It was initiated in Dr. Gentleman's time, a ground station at Antarctica. So we really went ahead, uh, you know, motivated teams who could have to stay to 10 months in a dark ticker.

And we established ground station in Antarctica. Uh, till that time, uh, was only for, uh, just putting. Uh, images of lists for, but then I realized, uh, the way, uh, the map and move on, uh, sorry. Google are, uh, you know, progressing and we don't have a high resolution map. So first thing, what we did was we started producing one degree grid of lists.

Which were freely [00:26:00] downloadable. So we created a section called Noida and that I see open your data archive for which we are to go through many cycles of approval from chairman it's later on, we added the Carto set them also for free download, uh, then. The maps, which are not a C was doing as part of an, our sensors.

We said that they must be all port for, as a WMS service. So by the time I left, there were about 2,600 image layers, which were being visualized on bovine. So then we, we were, uh, we inherited. Well one, which was commercial software based. We totally made it open source. That was another big effort.[00:27:00]

In-between we had IRS our ISAT launch. So operationalizing that our data from an RSC was another big. And, uh, so I found my five-years at, uh, NRSC so much invigorating, so many things to. Another very interesting thing. I think one incident, which I should tell you is I was to join, uh, as director I had signed on the previous day.

Uh, I think it was March when gentlemen was it approved. So the next day I was to join and come as director and RSA to the office. And then. The aeronautical chief ministers, uh, helicopter crashed. So I started getting phone calling the car itself, [00:28:00] uh, from Delhi, from NDM, from ID or nacelle from chairman's office.

Everybody wants an RSC, you'll find a helicopter. It sort of doesn't have satellite data to really do. So I didn't go to, uh, office, we had a disaster DMS program. So I went to their control room, got our aircraft person who got the three air force pilots and try to find out, you know, what is this helicopter business and how do they really fly?

We had RAs at one B, so all images, all possible. So three days, literally morning to evening, we searched, then I could, you know, summarize my experience. We are looking for a metallic ball of shape. We [00:29:00] don't know. We don't have a prior image to differentiate the difference between non fallen, you know, baseline.

And we drop off the helicopter. And this helicopter is not on a bare soil. We are sad. It is in a sloping land in deep forest in nacelle and you have , which doesn't penetrate. So we spend a lot of time in, you know, educating people. Then in this four or five years, we did a lot of work on flooding. We in fact had another big event was this gaydar are not the , you know, disaster.

We really did much better. We did hydrological modeling. We did satellite data. [00:30:00] In fact, the list for data was used globally to talk off what happened on the first time. The first landslide and the second landslide and the church. So like this, there are a number of examples then when we had the Hadoop, uh, we could even fly by that time.

And RSC had permission from AARC without prior approval, we could fly over here. So we covered the windblown, you know, the factories, et cetera. And every evening, uh, Mr. Bob and I do was the chief minister. We would go and report today's satellite picture and water analysis of damage. Then we could also set up, you know, along with that, uh, people could, uh, report.

Broken a bridge, a whore house or something, and it will [00:31:00] come with a geo-tech picture and sit there so we could quickly build up, you know, like why we could do it. Because as an example, after the, uh, our experience of, uh, For DSD. We did a project on maneuver, which is mapping, uh, this disaster areas using hundred students of Srinagar university.

Each damage point was brought into the board. So I would say, uh, an RSC was every day was a disaster either for us or in the country. And then we had a big. People want satellite data, high resolution Carto SAC, but Cartosat actually covered only 7% of the country in eight years, cloud free. So with no data, then director [00:32:00] NRSC had to take the decision.

Our partner set. One was a unique satellite where you could do your rotation of 90 days. So, what you will do is you can get a 60 kilometer SWAT of 2.5 meter resolution. So for one year we operated Cartosat one with your rotation over India to really produce a baseline high resolution picture, which we use to fuse and then try to.

Uh, Margaret, because we really had huge data deficient. It was so much so that when I, uh, another issue came was when I was given this charge, uh, the CAG had already reviewed an RSA 2004, 5, 6, 7. Uh, the report is still available in CAG. [00:33:00] It simply says. Uh, you are launching satellite without a user participation, but another seat does not launch that light.

Right. Then it says you are not, uh, imaging to the capability of a satellite. Went to explain, uh, India is 2% of the globe. Satellite covers whole globe. If there are no international ground station, you don't have onboard capacity. How can you cover the full capacity anyway, CAG doesn't understand, not willing to, uh, so they went on commenting.

We went on replying, so they set off internal rate of return. Uh, so there are a couple of issues. So, but the summon substance of it was we would send replies then, uh, at headquarter with their wisdom, they will sort of tone down our response and it will go. [00:34:00] So finally, myself and our chairman, Dr.

Radhakrishnan, we had to appear as witness before the parliamentary committee and there, they gave us, you know, some do's and don'ts then why you are not. So that, that was the end of that. The other part was that, uh, we, we also had this program, uh, other national programs, which are coming up and the prime minister wanted to do actually Modi wanted to do this for large area.

So NRSC actually signed almost Tati 40 MOU. We produced a map, uh, of the Gale monitoring with the D. Uh, the pipeline monitoring at monthly basis, we did a project on linking the, uh, mine actual boundary with surface where it is happening. We did a program with the ministry of culture on trying [00:35:00] to map all the areas around the restricted monument, whether something new has come up, it was across the board.

So I would say. This opportunity, parallelly. What happened was I was the India's representative to you uncooperative, I think 2012 or 11 by 12. I think I was the leader of the team. So we would go there, make the presentations. So I think 2015, uh, it was the. Next, uh, chairmanship of science and technology committee became weakened.

So initially there were no, uh, applicants then, uh, our GV Subramaniam ambassador, uh, in, uh, Austria and others, they said, let [00:36:00] us have India. Then since I was the leader for past two, three year, they proposed by that time, uh, Japan had also prepared. From their side chairmanship. So now, uh, we have very close relationship with Japan on UN coppers and they had proposed Chiaki Mukai.

Uh, she is the first, uh, Asian woman astronaut. Uh, so then it was decided that India would be the chair in SD for the first year and Tiara Kaimuki will take over. So that's why in 2016, the. SMT thing I chair, since this also gave us an opportunity. So I had the opportunity to hand over the model of moms to UN coppers to the director in February of 2015.

[00:37:00] So I would say, uh, Israel give so many tremendous opportunities. Which I don't think any other carrier or for a botany person to really come up, there are a large number of such events India's participation in IVF. In fact, in the APR staff, I used to chair a sub group on technology. You know, that in fact, in one of the, uh, uh, Leaders conference is rodent go.

So we, I have a picture with some 11 countries, uh, chairman of space program, including doxa chief standing with holding hands like this to decide to work together. So, uh, finally, sometime I think in 2016, I got a message that [00:38:00] German is. That the opening is coming up for IST. I should apply for that director.

So I appeared in the interview. So should he go over them? Uh, director, longtime director of IASC. He was chairing. So finally I went July, 2016 and ISD has another issue. Uh, we were to build a camp. In 18 months, it went into a spin and only two buildings were there. So I spent most of the time, uh, requesting for money, completing the building, which in 2019, we could do two blocks, which recurrent Kamar could inaugurate.

Plus I could. Or I could persuade my colleagues to really do things. They were doing, uh, activity on small satellite. So [00:39:00] first we could in almost like two months, we could do the Aries payload with the physics people, which measured the electrons. And then I think last month, our inspire set, which I had the privilege of signing the MOU, uh, with the.

Colorado, uh, that also is now flying. We also established a ground station first, a UHF VHF, and then we upgraded to Aspen. We also persuaded our chemistry people to really start doing biology. So, uh, ISD has a project on measuring the, uh, kidney stones of Drosophila. In microgravity environment. So, uh, the, my experience at, uh, Thrivent drum was very mixed of building [00:40:00] infrastructure, uh, student and admission issues.

Managing, you know, huge thing plus ensuring that we did some of the very good things. We set up a small spacecraft payload center. We set up a lab, we set up this microgravity thing. We set up nano sensor, including nano sensors, which are, will be tested, uh, for the CO2 measurement, uh, in the human space flight.

Uh, while of course, uh, I did work on hyperspectral in between. I was the chair of the DST committee on the Nissa imaging spectroscopy program. So we used to do that. Uh, so I would say, uh, I mean, for somebody who was doing bought me and agriculture, I could do 40. Of continuous [00:41:00] learning, amazing people, the type of opportunities, you know, starting the first one was when I was sent to Japan in Kumamoto in 2016 as a solo representative for inauguration of the Tokai space center to the end, up to the chairmanship.

Uh, SNT committee of UN was, I mean, I could cover almost so many things, including, uh, I chaired a session of the, uh, us India's, uh, space, civil space corporation. The fifth side was the Indian co-chair went to Washington as part of the second meeting while we were developing the UN center. For which I was twice the acting director [00:42:00] in 2013, I was a member of a UN expert group, which went to behind university to approve setting up of the regionals remote sensing center under UN at Bihar.

So, uh, amazing experience, a lot of, you know, uh, amazing. But, uh, I can, I continue to learn and we could establish flux towers, crop forecasting. Currently, of course I am chairing expert group on, uh, how to bring technology for farmer insurance. So I think learning never stops. Thank you very much.[00:43:00]

[00:43:01] Narayan: thank you for listening into this episode of the new space in debt podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share this episode with anyone you believe will enjoy listening to it. You'll be able to find the new space in the podcast, in any of the podcasting platforms that you may be using, including apple, Google, Spotify, YouTube.

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