00:00.00
Narayan
Hi and welcome to yet another episode of the new space india podcast today we have toshar here who leads manustu space and propulsion company that is based in India one of the only propulsion companies that I know apart from baratricx I guess that are. Ah, innovating and have been innovating for the last decade or so in India so toshar thank you so much for taking the time again and welcome to the show. Thanks.

00:27.29
Tushar Jadhav
Thank you name So good to meet you and good to talk to you and always fascinating to share our journey What we have gone through what what we be planning to thank you for your inviting.

00:39.50
Narayan
So before we get into like Moasto and everything else I know that you also worked in drdo and you know your colleague also I guess worked in somewhere in the government or so on you need a lot of motivation to quit a government job in India to start a company as is. So you know what led to the creation of Manasoo was it job frustration or was it. You know, just the opportunity that you saw that you wanted to build a company for or is it was it a mix of everything else. You know what is the story behind the start of manasoo.

01:15.32
Tushar Jadhav
Ah, startup minus to it's combination of actually 2 3 things. Ah so when I was studying in 90 bomba. The few things are clear that either I would to I didn't want to work for mc and either I'll work so option recommendel. And work for government or start or my own startup so through camp got into diio so and the dia a was It's a very interesting experience to I will not label anything else. They got to do a lot of things what is happening in the or our defense ecosystem. And how India is approaching and what are the but where are the gaps that are there and more importantly, what? how how not to do the defense and some of the high tech developments also so got to learn a very interesting set of sets of things and whatever I had a plas of doing. While joining the di do didn't work out the way I was planning to because you know leaving many of the good private opportunities and other lucrative jobs joining a d idea was whole motivation was to do some amazing tick and that took a hit with some of the decision that happened so and. Simultaneously the ah space was growing and you could see t earlier. There are a lot of interesting things were happening. It was out to to the sixteenth seventeenth also so then took a plunge of leaving the job and starting off our starting bunus to space. For me, it was straightforward quite forward for a simple reason that it was not about ah the whatever the job security was and everything is you know that comes with a government not just just one part of it for me. The biggest problem was you know you know. Going on the deathbed and trying and with having that regret of not trying off always what we I was capable of and I what I always wanted to do so that regret you know, not doing something was and not doing what I will wanted to do was weighing more than. Having a job security. So I said this is the best time to get it to let's take a plunge and let's see where it goes that being an I bomb alumni gives a learn lot of safety needsts to try things worked on top show took a and jump with the head first and things are been working out. In very interesting ways that we'll discuss in the.

03:52.80
Narayan
So right? and when you wanted to take the plunge and start the company was it that the I bombay had a entrepreneurship cell that offered you support and that led to some sort of a gateway into finding some you know. Earnings or seed money to begin with or how did you actually make a plunge because of course you know you either need to have or come from a very rich family to do something in space where the family gives you seed money or or sometimes do something in software like we are doing for example, where. Very little investment and purely its code and you can write code just eating 2 meals today and build a product on top of that otherwise you will need to have ah people who believe in your ideas and start investing in you so that you can spend that money to build that hardware. So how did you come up with. The seed funding for example for these ideas to then mature.

04:51.87
Tushar Jadhav
So interestingly for us, you know finding a Ford was actually was of course some money is imported to start running but somehow for minus two things have happened with the time that whenever we needed a money we found a way to get the money. Through competition through grant or something so we didn't to wait for investor to come and give the money and then continue the process. So so we took a plunge and started the working and somehow every time we faced an issue. We got the money that we required and we found the support that was required so I believe that passion. Ah, doing something that you always love will always lead to you to find a way to solve a problem live be that top of money be that of a finding infrastructure mentor or team member teammate cofounder any of those things if you. Really really want to do those things you will find those things so that has been the case. So for us. It Bombbe was for sure a big big help. We started working with the support in the iti bombe labs using itibubpe facilities and the professors helped us to. Give some of the access to some few fast lab facilities there so we could start our little hardware development and ah not just the hardware development as well as the mening. Also you know how to go ahead in terms of technology as well as. And another then with the slowly slowly in year and year and half in the development then we got a shell got just invested in us in a very small amount but more than the amount they they started helping us from the r and d side as well as the lab facilities up of the ma material that. Consumable that we wanted to buy which are the expensive materials. So through that we found a way to get the work that so if someone is not giving money. We ask them for support in kind if someone is not to support in kind. We ask them to connect in make some connection that we can help us with finding some alternative to. That has been the case every time we face a problem and that's how we found a win. That's how them ah when us to take took us started very slowly. We started in our lab with almost minimum support in our in terms of financial background and as well as any initial investor and that things took on. Organically other than when requires.

07:20.10
Narayan
Right? And when you look at the whole propulsion game Today. It's changed drastically over the last ten years or so I guess a lot of the propulsion around the world has been hydtrazine oriented and essentially very toxic I know that even. If some few milligrams or whatever micrograms of these kinds of things enter your body you can die as quickly as like I don't know a few days or something like that or even a few hours so these are very difficult technologies that have taken and quite a long time to transition and. From what you guys are trying to do with green propulsion and so on this is a kind of a game changer in propulsion technology in general and essentially this has been evolved in the last ten years or or so in many ah you know different parts around the world. So before we get into what manistoo does itself in green propulsion I would love for you to. Kind of give a brief about how propulsion has evolved in terms of propellants and you know toxicity and carcinogenics and so on and how this new Era Of Propulsion is you know, either saving time or saving effort or you know removing health deserts so on.

08:34.64
Tushar Jadhav
Yeah, a very interesting, very good question actually to be frank space pro did not change a much till last ten years as ten to fifteen years or so the and the government was. So, especially the Nasa led support effort and few other companies were doing so finding an alternative alternatives and trying few combinations but really efforts really took off ah since 2010 or so 2000 ill say 6 or so and then big way since the european. Ah, union blacklisted the hyterine under the reach program and they gave the estate 8 year so that was 2011 ten yard is to 2021 but because of covid those timelines are a little shifted so industry got the hint basically that we set high time that we need to go. Out of this hyrozine to give you an idea the problem. The scale, the problem scale of a problem is that Hydrozine is 2 times toxic than the gas that laid bu gas tragedy which is myhiizedo sign it and it is as toxxi some of the c sinage that are there. So we know what happens when there is an accident when there is a leakage when they're the weaponpers weapons are also toxic when you inhale when you are working for long duration when you inhale those fumes that that is also Carcio Jeni so in all, you know on the name of a space development using space for the. Betterment of earth and all the treaty we signed we are killing a people on ground slow death that is zero that are the behind the scene unsung heroes who are dying unknowingly knowingly over the period of last year last so many decades or so Elma said. And the obvious question comes in then why were there not been efforts much efforts before last at ten fifteen years ago for a simple reason it works well nitrogen people are comfortable in terms of how it works performs how it behaves under different condition. What are the properties. The technologies around it. What's well laid up. So. That's why I mean that that innert share that always the space industry always had because the space has been done by the large corporates Nasa and east rows of the world and since last 15 2015 years or so now this commercialization has started in a big way now. The people are talking about. You know. Saving money saving a cost in the operational cost and it's not afford to have that expensive hydrogen system because synthesizing hydrogen is also expensive process then transporting it. It is also expensive because it's extremely toxic and handling it filling it into the satellite that operation cost.

11:25.58
Tushar Jadhav
Around three days one days before and you need to clear out the area then you need fill the operation operation of filling it into the satellite and then the ah next day you need to clear keep that area empty because because of the fumes which are also toxic so everything adds up into the cost of operation as more and more. Businesses are coming the more and but the economy is playing a big role in space development people are looking out for a green propulsion system which will be a the less toxic and much less toxic than the heters in the b are. At least minimum as efficient as heteroid or best the good will be more efficient than that and preferably cheaper option in terms of cost of one you each system cheaper option but the deaf toxicity the performance and the cost are the 3 main driving factor. So. Something that will not kill people while handling while transportation. You need a less safety compared to hydroid itchka comes under a broad a green propulsion umbrailver.

12:32.78
Narayan
Excellent and thank you for that kind of a very brief very nontechnical, but still very relevant explanation of the whole thing and from a indian perspective here I know that isro still uses some of the. And older technology with hydrozine and others for their space propulsion requirements given that they're all very well tested in orbit and have been used in many many satellites and probably they don't want to discuss you know they don't want to disturb any of that at the moment can you give a rundown on. Except you guys pushing this front on green propulsion and so on is there any specific government lab in India in either in Israel or d or d or others who've actually tried to make any of investments in this front ah or have done any experiments relevant or you know is it that. You guys are really looking at it as pioneers trying to do this thing while people within isro or the audio are then able to use technology from you guys. For example.

13:40.20
Tushar Jadhav
Yeah, so isro you know the way isro functions is little different than the businesses and for them getting hundred person. Success is more important than making a profit or revenue is called do the cost petty because. The the way the history structure the way the world. The country looks at it. So the job of is Israel is to take as minimum race as possible and get the mission successful and the fact that we don't have an alternative in India which is affordable correctly that can go. Today into the satellite is Israel doesn't have an alternative but to go ahead with the hydroine or heterogen based systems be that for satellite maintenance station keeping maning as well as the orbit transfer. Also so by propellant mono proplet combined put together so that. Even saying having said that isro is trying its own hands on some of the developments on the green propulsion hy a in based hyroxy ammonium based ni based system internally so they' are trying that options. There are a lot of. Work that needs to be done. There's some small efforts that been going on in Israel that as far as we are kind aware of and we believe that we have a very good ah you know option opportunity to not just you know pioneerize the in. Development has been started in this room what we have believe is that we have option to but make it pioneer be a pioneer in wilder in terms of commercialization commercializing it first time in India. In fact, we don't care about commercialization in first time in India we want to be a global player so we would allow is Israel to use our system. Once we develop it successfully and our propulsion system powering indian satellite isro satellite that will be definitely a dream and that was definitely a 1 of the demand or the request with in space that kept that indian body that is set up to interface with the startups and industry that. Can we do that in the coming future once we to do the flight testing coming to the di do defense a defense side of the aspect. The defense is currently the hydro and they have funded ah our startup to develop an alternative so green prop proportion system. So through them. Through us their their green propulsion systems are but you know green propulsion efforts are being taken forward.

16:20.20
Narayan
Right? And that's again, very interesting that you mentioned about both these efforts from a scale perspective. There are companies that are trying to do these kinds of propulsion technologies from very small satellites. Know somebody who's also trying to develop propulsion for I don't know satellites that are like two hundred grams three hundred grams right to people who are looking at you know 6 ton satellites with all electric and things like that right? So the scale can be. Very broad with respect to the size of the satellite. The kind of men were which orbit they want to go into what kind of you know life plan they have would they want to also de-orbit the satellite using some of this propulsion capability they have or there are many many things that go into these things right? So from. Moustos perspective. Is there a particular sweet spot that you think that you are going to hit that. Maybe today there are you know satellites that are 10 to ° which are in the hundreds that are being launched every month and some of them are today coming up with like 100 to three hundred Kilogram kind of satellites that are you know one web or starlink or many others like that or even some of the bigger earth observation satellites and there's a tiny bit of satellites that go into geoorbit nowadays. So what is the. Kale in which your propulsion systems would work and what would be the targets for the kind of operators that you would want to then work with.

17:56.74
Tushar Jadhav
Yes, absolutely so. It's a huge market you see the diversity diversity in terms of the satellite types and what are the application that they are but in terms of the orbit where there will be in terms of application in terms of payload in terms of manure in terms of trajectory. It's overwhelming so we keep softer a lot of studies and you know the best fit of technology. We believe that the the switch spot is somewhere between hundred to 300 cages satellites and we are ok. We serve the little smallers Atlas like 80 cages 90 gas also for sure. This is not is not hard and fast bound but we believe that is another very interesting market that is coming up so 2 types of satellite market. We believe is going to create a bigger disruptions are the satellites up around say 5 cages to 5 cs to 7 cages the under a ah. And there a ah small so cube site or little on the cube site market and the small satellites which are around hundred one fifty cages of sweet sport satellite because when fifty gs satellites are satellites which are big enough to carry a good bottle of pay. But small enough to be launched in hundreds and thousands of number be that of a you know, high high definition imaging radar away satellites then of course internet satellites are there and lot of ah infrastructure people are building on in this inside in the space to serve the space satellites in the space. Combination of those things so we believe that is also that is one very interesting market high definition imaging realtime videos and internet and as well as the small satellites which are a like five cs seven cases where you launch it in the flocks and figure it out phenomena that so that you can using a high definition. Resolution camera you can Zoom into one particular location. Not target some particular ph phenomena nine go great detail so combination of those type of satellites working in sync will be a game change and that is what we believe will be a very testing case. So that's why we are sort of. Nothing stops us to go serves satellites which are around say 50 cages or satellites are of around 304 hundreded cages as long as the thrust that required by them match us with us and that the duration in which we are so qualifying arts with propel system is in the same range of their qualification as well as there. Time duration. So so that is a currently applied.

20:32.50
Narayan
Nice and from the perspective of the technology itself if there's probably 2 elements of this I'm no propulsion expert but from a logical standpoint at least when I look at it you kind of need to engineer the propellent itself. The.

20:49.83
Tushar Jadhav
Um, yeah.

20:51.96
Narayan
Kind of the green propellant that you will probably look at and you need to engineer the device or the thruster itself to be able to fire the propellant that you will be then you be using it right? So they have to work together in that Sense. So. From the approach that you guys are taking is it like a parallelized approach that you kind of work on both of them and and mix and match and and then you know look at firing it and testing it out and let's say on top of that. How good is like the private sector. Talent pool and you know infrastructure and supplier availability for some other components and the tests to be conducted to realize all of these things. So.

21:38.24
Tushar Jadhav
Yes, 2 big questions actually to combined so let me ask the first answer the first question where how what is the approach we took and what are the system that is there in the process of development you exactly pointed out to very key innovations is appropriateent and that. The the thruster part there is actually 1 very interesting component that is there that is actually a you know secret ingredient is the catalyst actually catalyst is a catyst is you can imagine like a spark plug in the car. That starts the combustion. So catalyst is something similar that sits inside this thruster or engine and starts the combusion when the propellent other fuel is injected on it so rather than having sparked length. We have a catalyst which sits. There and whenever the fuel comes it starts the ignition combustion and the thrust be generated whenever the flow is stop the flow the thrust. Ah so we took a sort of a parallel approach for a simple reason that there were when we started. We had a risk of. Whether the propelet will be stable or no, we started with a plan a plan b to ensure that it is stable so that if plan a doesn't work out which is the best case scenario plan b will be the second best best case scenario with little bit of penalty and little lower performance. So. And then even in that plan b whether it makes sense to build a system from customer point of view in terms of economics as well as the you know the Usb point of view to the satellite manufacturer that made sense so we took that decision so we we started with this plan when plan plan a plan b for. Propeent because it was new other other 2 aspects the thruster and the catalyst catyst has been figured out by some of the companies worldwide. So we know it can be done. It is a matter of time that we do it with r and d it experimentation and retreat to testing. And then the third part is the the thruster so we know it works. So just the it's a matter of time we reengineer the internal design in terms of injection pattern come how the combusion happens. What are the lens the dimensions etc of the engine where we are figuring out that combustion in the more detail. So. All things doing parallel is the approach that we took with a plan a plan b of each subsystem we does if a doesn't work out. what will be the b and what will be the penaltyal and what is the risk associated with so everything on that line.

24:26.33
Tushar Jadhav
Coming to your second question about the talent infrastructure oh India needs a lot of work on that side especially infrastructure point so we have a good talent. You have a really really good talent. You have seen people from very simple universities. Ah, not very known new as it is in the local towns coming and doing some which has never left their home city and coming and staying with us here in Mumbai in the midst of this metropolitan and one of the most you know activities in the world. And doing some fabulous shock and that includes convincing his road. Yeah, your scientist about the work that we are doing and then getting up you know, convincing them in the different different reviews. So we believe there is a lot of potential There is a lot of talent. There is a more there is a gap between you know, trained talent I will say that will be that will be good if we do a lot of support lot of students project so that you get a talent when it is out of your university that details. Ah that experience of building a space technology. We would love as a industry we would love to have that talent for sure coming to infrastructure. We are really need to work really really hard to establish the a infrastructure be the ecosystem of you know? ah. As you so mentioned about the suppliers often different components like walls ceilings and everything which is which will which has like who have experience of building up their component in the space space grid manner as well. If not space gra at least the defense grid manner or something on those lines so we need a lot of work on that another major work that India needs to do is on the material side material and the manufacturing side. We still have a decent manufacturing facilities in the country descent thanks to a lot of Ah, you know, ah intra the setup that isro has taken a time to train lot of companies. Isro dio defense. Ps you and all of them put together. They have trained lot of companies to do manufacturing. But we are really really bad in terms of materials original material development or in the original materials manufacturing that high temperature materials. We need a huge huge investment into those teams creating an infrastructure so that we can accelerate that material development.

27:02.90
Tushar Jadhav
Ah, currently that is one of the problem that we face the catyst is the material that we are developing which is a secret sauce is one of the most cutting edge materials that are available. Ah and in terms of the temperature. It needs to survive in terms of the operating condition pressure. The thermal cycles. It has to go through and it is really hard to quickly do a turn around of 1 design one can't we one synthesis and then figuring getting the material done and then testing it inside the engine and then figuring out how it works and then doing that repetitive cycle. Lack of infrastructures increases that cycle like anything in terms of analysis in terms of testing is terms of synthesis. So we need a lot of lot of work in terms of setting up the infrastructure and to be Frank the all the energy transition that is happening you know green revolution. Ah, ah is being led by the development in the materials if you see carbon capture technologies processing of that carbon capture be that of a solar panel be that of a battery battery is probably the most important and we India is missing that bus of. Being a vital part because of not a ability a ability non non ability to deno it in the material development and I think we have that with the last four years of development we have developed that capacity capabilities and know how of material development. Ultra high temperature materials variety of materials. You know from so development from the scratch to the commercial level so we are developing that capabilities infrastructure slowly slowly in-house but we need a whole set of ecosystem who invest money in r and d infrastructure and tech initiative to do different materials and. Build a whole ecosystem around.

28:54.97
Narayan
So know it's a very comprehensive answer. Thank you for that I think it's also interesting as to how all of this is developing when companies like yourself are taking a very product orientiented approach because most often the vendors that work with isro are very like. Service-oriented approach where they don't really invest in a lot of ip development but they invest in a lot of infrastructure that can produce forest row and the de-risking of the ip itself is done byro in the process right? So that's an interesting outcome and it's also great that you're able to leverage some of the. Row vendors themselves I guess in the process of doing all of this but let's say from the adoption perspective on how do you actually test this in space. You can do a lot of groundbased testing in thermo vax and you know do all sorts of. Tests of cycling and firing and all of these things but at the end of the day of course adoption only only comes when you're able to put this on a satellite and say this is fired in space and this is not working and it's gone through so many cycles or you're able to fire it so many times or so on right? so. How do you see this working for you guys. Will it be that that you will be directly flying on a customer satellites or do you work with somebody like an I bombay who is you know where you come from as well that they just put some of your thrusters and say will. Fly the satellite and we'll qualify the thruster for you on board. One of these satellites or are you also let's say putting it on 1 of his rows are prdo satellites and saying okay they will qualify the thruster in the process of them putting it on 1 of their satellites.

30:43.18
Tushar Jadhav
Yeah, so answering your earlier part of question or rather adding to the earlier part of comment look as a startup we don't have a option but to enovate rather I'll put it other way around whenever someone is doing innovation that is a startup. Otherwise we would have been a you know routine business and taking the risk and innovating comes naturally and it's always a game of yeah risk courses reward people are okay to take a low risk. You know the manufacturing for isro ah to the design that Israel has provided or the du has provided the missiles and all those things and take a very small share of the whole product or or the economy versus someone who takes a risk and build a system around it. And then qualifies it and put into the production and take a big chunk of ah the profit the margin and that whole product so can compare like think of a Iphone Apple versuss Foxconn. But do you want to become a Fox one or do you want to become Apple of ah, any particular product is what you need to decide on. And as a startup for us. It comes naturally for us for we people it comes naturally to today take the risk and you know focus on the blood that chun because we don't have any baggage of having already infrastructure legacy and having no. That some companies have a like a mindset of that we will. We are good in those things will not enter into the so race comes naturally so is the reward proportionally. So that's where that's why we had to and we are here because last generation did not take that risk of innovating. So someone had to take a risk and we can't point a finger that no one is doing so we took her plunge and we decided let's do this thing and let's establish the ecosystem. So at least next generation of interpreters ah will benefit from the decision that we took. So coming to your second question. Yes, definitely the flight testing is the next critical milestone for us also and for that we are working on 3 3 potential options currently one is we are talking to the companies. Are building a satellite who builds us satellite and for a customer and then launch it and do the you know do that operation operations in terms of tracking and everything for a customer payload. We are talking to such a customers who will do flight testing for us.

33:27.62
Tushar Jadhav
Second thing is we are in touch with Isro and the ideas that we can can we put our satellite as piggy bank on our prop profession system as a piggyback on their satellite and the third is the best case will be that some other companies who are building a news satellite. They build a satellite and they want to test their platform. So we we build our satellite and. Ah, we build our propulsion system. They build a satellite so they take care of a share of a cost of ah building a satellite and launching that much weight and we take a share of a cost of building our propuls system and launching it into the launching cost of that that much of weight so we are evaluating all the 3 option. Every option has its pros and cost if we go with a dedicated satellite that has already been proven then the cost will be much higher than the third option where we share with the new partner who is building a satellite is just that the news satellite miss uncertainty into their platform. Also. Our system is new that system is know if we will not be able to know exactly who if it fails why it does been but the second option sounds very comfortable putting it onto East Road Dd Satellite is just that it comes without its own timeline delays and plans. So as a startup we can't rely on all those options that uncertainty for long so we are evaluating those 3 options and in terms of as the you know the time progresses are the funding approach the financial supports and as we have more confidence of our system will. Will finalize 1 or 1 not the 2 options maybe and then take a and then go ahead and then finally choose one of them so to test the system into the space so ideas by the end of next by the mid of next year get the. Launch it our system by the end of this year twenty twenty two and by the mid of next year have it completely tested so six mission six months of mission life that is currently a target it depends on the resources as well as how technology matures but that is these are the internet targets for.

35:37.00
Narayan
So good luck to you and the team you know for that I think it's very interesting and there's great potential for companies like you to start exporting some technology from India rather than simply trying to work within the country. Supply for the market within from ah, let's say the perspective of the kind of support that you can receive to give you kind of a nudge from within the space program or even outside the space program there are of course. Many ways in which the americans or europeans also help some of these companies by either helping them fund some of these technologies or fly some of these technologies in 1 way or the other and they are initiatives and frameworks that are available for them to engage. Doing all of this and you know whatever you are doing is something that you are doing within your own power and are trying to figure out ways in which you can progress despite having any of these kinds of frameworks available if you would give any suggestions as to. Something could be done for companies like you to be getting that nudge. What would that wish list look like.

36:58.61
Tushar Jadhav
Yeah, actually it's a interesting question and I think there's a lot of been discussion been going on how can government bodies especially Isro Support Isro can support startups in terms of multiple ways as you mentioned the financial. Funding the project then helping them in the process of developing a product or technology or the service and then third maybe help them know bringing that technology to the maturity level and then helping them to make it mature technology be that of a satellite bit at that lunchweka or the propulsion system. But. Any of the humboard hardware. You're developing like new processor new antinas or something these are ah these are the areas you need lot of handholdings. A lot of support from and many other problems that are there. That's our startups are so planning to solve has been already solved by. Organizations like Israel so with their have the journey can become you know focusing on the solving the most important problems rather than figuring out the peripheral things that ah isra is already with fers of rupe and lot of years of hardware work has already solved. So definitely. Support in this way starting with the funds maybe supporting in terms of like the Issa as the isab incubation program. The Nasa has this funding the ora government has a small business funding in initiatives program source any of those kind of program in a. In a big way in India where they can create the early stage of a startup will be a definitely on the first list First item second item supporting them in development of the technology in terms of figuring out that thing that has been already figured out. Helping them with the infrastructure helping them with the mentoring helping them with a you know dos and don'ts offer a space industry is like say even like small small things like using a clean room effectively. So transportation of some of those flight components from 1 location to another location so that in the process they go don't get damaged and then figuring out ways to handle those equipment. Those are very small things which is so other times making some mistakes figuring out doing a lot of experimentation has figured out. So they can do that but in very short duration. Those can be translated to the startup so that will be the second handholdling ah in terms of product development as well as the process establishing a process of product development and the third and definitely will be.

39:47.31
Tushar Jadhav
But guide us in terms of like lot of the director level scientists. Ah people who have the experience of directing the project big scale project how the project development happens. What are the pros and what are the risk how the risk has to associate how the cost cost goes on into the development. How to how to you know plan the infrastructure development as well as the people management so that that guideline through the people who have retired scientists and all those things coming forward and active helping startup. They're already doing it and if they do it in a more labor more more way that will definitely helpful. A lot of. Helpful for standups another vertical that government even overall Israel can help is to make making a clear policy like guidelines and helping startups to figure it out. What does that exactly policy means and how can we leverage that policy to. Create a well class product work class service and rather than hampering our own startups and services in India so the policy wise the framework the rules and regulation norms of those things helping those startups and setting them. Okay. Setting them in the first place and then helping us startups to fulfill. Those regulations will be but very important support this government including the isro and other bodies can do to help us start up so these are will be roughly top level 4 5 4 or 5 items on my list. And actually we are a lot more list like retire people of a sort scientist are like a jib and they if they can we get access to those people will be a very very game changer another will be the lot of you know lot of vendors and lot of supplier that you so I develop with that over that you period of times. If a sort of make an access the list of those people accessible and some of the design that is for has done will reduce a lot of work for us so that will come under. You can put it roughly under handholdly but these are the top levels help wish list per se. That we can expect first startups to have it but nonetheless it's a challenge so solving. The challenge is a part of a story so it's just that we want to create a work class product and with the without workclass support. It takes a lot of time investment and. Create that workless product. So by the time the were the rest of the world would have gone much I had till the time we figure it out how these things happen so to make it together to give our own startup a competitive way. We need to create this infrastructure system process around the startups and the whole ecosystem.

42:34.76
Narayan
So that's a very comprehensive list and very nice actually explanation to what are all the things that can be exploited within the country to support companies at the end and. Um, your own story actually given that you ah are coming from this I bombay ecosystem a very prestigious institute and you know coming from that kind of a background as well as having connections to ah I mean being an alumni of b rd or so on. I guess that also adds a lot of value in and also probably some credibility in terms of approaching these institutions for help as well if you weren't from any of these institutions. You know, not any big name institution or of that nature would you have. Been at the same place that you are today or would have would the journey have been a lot more difficult as you know from your experience of ah.

43:31.63
Tushar Jadhav
Um, interesting question like me think for sure Jeremy would have been different maybe difficult if you ask me personally for a simple reason the you know. Forget about the infrastructure and contact and any other support. The biggest support that biggest help support the id the tag of ibombe gives is that is that you have that safety net that you know if this doesn't work out. You have a multiple more option when you join the first what makes. It is little different or valuable is that it's not about the infrastructure or it's not about this anything else. It just that the mindset when the person joins and I on the first day that they've been told that they good. They the topmost they are the cream of the nation and so called and that goes into the mind. Okay, you you can do a lot of things. It is just the sky is the limit what you can do and we have so many people doing those things that so you get that confidence, you know when someone tells you again and again and again and that your good your griev, etc, etc. So that that. That instill that instills that kind come confident. So now that that baseline is clear that even if this doesn't work hard. You have a lot of options. Frees up lot of space in your head to think about what next and then that that. That what next ability is to take a risk related to building a startup source venturing into something unknowns on your own or and in the process you will find a support having said that everyone has its own journey and then if you really want to get something done be that of a big name of. Like I I ams or any other things I think it matters just sit 5% in hundred percent of Germany or even maybe a less than that except the fact that some of the investors look for I I am taxed but that Wes everyone face the same problems same challenges. Apart from that we need to same convince this investor convince the customers to buy our system and negotiate with the vendor and vendor will have its own problem to deliver things so that don't get that don't make our any life easier. So I'll say it. It would have been definitely different. Maybe little. Difficult maybe we would have ah had to find some more different ways to get the work done. But I think we might if anyone wants to get get it done. They can find a way to get it done. It just a matter of time maybe in terms of.

46:19.21
Tushar Jadhav
If you took say 3 years to get something done. They might take say 4 years or four and half years to get that get those things done. So don't let anyone tell you that because you are not from the top university so-called top university you can't do something or it's not possible or it's very difficult. It's as equal is difficult for us as then for any other people and anyone can do what they want to do if they deal you want to do as bad as say breathing then you will eventually do it.

46:49.80
Narayan
From a perspective of customers from your own product. For example, does it get easier to ride on somebody's brand like an isro brand which has a very you know good international reputation. They do reliable stuff and they have lots of fli heritage and coming from India is borrowing a little bit of Isro's prestige in the international market and is that useful while talking to international customers or is there a little bit of skepticism saying. Should we go in and work with an indian company and buy technology from there. So what is the kind of reception that you get as a you know state of the art technology provider coming from India and it comes to international markets.

47:38.20
Tushar Jadhav
Actually we we do write on Israel's ah you know good work over the last so many years and that helps that helps you know Israel has set up a brand image. Ah. That India is a place where you get things done especially in the case of a space at very affordable price and they work reliably so the cost and the reliability are the probably the 2 most important factors that are. You know that are playing a role in making the space new space economy that has been today and and going forward for next say fifty years hundred years down the line. So the cost reliability and the pro performance to those 3 4 parameters so So definitely we definitely ride on that. Isros good work over the years and the value ah that the the the image of indian space program that they have established in the eyes of all the foreign foreign companies if you compared toly if you are selling a difference product then people are a little more skeptical. Then say you're so selling a space product as long as you have the all the certification and the fact that you're in India there. Theyre very very very much open to discuss and see how things goes on. So having said that. As I mentioned the cost is important factor and few countries who will India who who can afford that costs are probably say India China and few other countries maybe and India China are the 2 being a space far IgNation ah India sits at a very interesting junction of socioecon economical geopolitically point of view that India has a very good relations with the multiple of the countries ah major countries major space fairing nations, especially Europe us Australia ja Japan al Russia. Also. So because of that you know, ah the people have that understanding okay India means we can rely on the India because of geopolitical situation. So that gives us a lot of you know age or many of the other people because we are competing at the cost. And of course technology is the cutting edge and people trust India overall development wise and now people for long people are trusting the soft services of India like software services now the shift is happening slowly steady long way to go but still shift is happening that people are relying on.

50:27.94
Tushar Jadhav
Indian hardware also slowly slowly and that that you can see in terms of rise of lot of ah investment into the deep tech startup that is coming up. Numbers are very small but they are rising in a very good way in a very interesting positive way and probably maybe fire 7 years to 10 years down the line. We'll start seeing. Ipos and Sps of India's deep tech startups are so that shows that lot of investment from outside India coming into the India Indian Indian Startup space startups signing Abo collaborating with a lot of foreign companies is the sign of that that trust building up. We are also closely working with multiple of the foreign companies from France Germany the Japan also and figuring out how ways we can do it and then signing contracts with some of the companies so things are changing rapidly and we have the advantage in terms of cost geopolitics as well as the reliability of because of Israel. So that definitely helps.

51:28.96
Narayan
So what are the challenges looking like today and for the next let's say a couple of years for you guys. Is it mostly fundraising to make sure that you have enough runway or is it finding opportunities that can then you know allow you to. Test out different scale of thrusters or it's a combination of everything there.

51:53.66
Tushar Jadhav
Ah I will say challenges are manyi is just that we are figuring out ways to solve those challenges and I will say the mile shows may be as a as a term rather than challenges so milestone will be to raise fund that we are currently raising quickly and. Ah, finish that flight testing as soon as possible start delivering the system to the customer because when we started our startup journey. We didn't want to do the business or we don't want to develop a startup in a way we are just spending the investor money. That's why we started a small with the 1 small in part of a whole system and making it a big to start with and then building on top of that is what we will believe and that's why we spend a lot of time to get the paying customers and through India defense we got that so we always want to build a sustainable business out of it. Ah, than startup which will you know, raise 4 or 5 rounds of money and still have no customer or no revenue. So we didn't want to do that. So that's why we took this thing so Target is to the the trust that has been showed by the current customers and the customers that we are talking to. Fulfilling that trust and start delivering on to their trust is the first milestone I'll say second after fundraising in the first milestone currently this that is customer reliable reliably testing it into the space is the second milestone and then we have a lot of interesting technologies in pipeline. A lot on that we want to build on top of the current propulsion system. We our technology can make ah something like a combination of electric as well as the green propulsion system in using 1 properly that is a next you know next? ah. Development in line so combination of electric plus chemical in 1 system is what we are developing on so 2 things in 1 go in 1 system so you get the best of the both the world that is what another it is what next system along with that you are also working on planning keeps. How can we support the customer from into it so start of life where we give them a propation system to is less refueing as a service to extend the life and then once we have a platform which we can do a in space fueling which we believe is one another major. Ah. Growth venture development that is going to happen is a use space services be that of a refue link be that of a ah as a bus a space dug or be that offered no debrisol service like what astroca is happening. So.

54:42.64
Tushar Jadhav
So refueing is what we are targeting so that we can support customer from end to end so these are four fight I'll say a very interesting technology that are lined up after existing so delivering on the current purposes and then going ahead and building on to top of the current technology to build a amazing product is. Are the main challenges for next three or four years that we we are currently working on preparing up gearing up as we would.

55:11.97
Narayan
So Great I think um, that's actually a very interesting overview of all the things that you have planned in the next couple of viewers and it's very comprehensive as well. Good luck to the team and I'm hoping that you know you guys and. Many of the other new space companies that are all starting out to get into this more of delivering cook to customers maturing their products and then eventually entering the market with a bus are able to. Succeed and then create a wave of some of these companies from India who are actually going to be starting to compete internationally and grab some of the market share I think that is the only way that we can you know basically coerce the government in one way or the other to support the sector. More because at the end of the day people need to see some evidence of success coming out and then I guess only then I see the system giving a better push that there is some evidence that this sector is about to grow.

56:18.22
Tushar Jadhav
Yes, very valid point because you know is we are in that for last still this year and maybe next year we are in the datacent stage where we are just many of the start offer raising money. In a year or two. It's a time that we start delivering to the promises that we made it to all the investors customers and all of that so that we can build on those promises and raise more money we are raising startups are raising in and tens of ah millions of dollars in in that order so now the target is can we convince the investors to so that they can start investing in the fifteen. So hundreds of millions of dollars going forward and that will come only when we start delivering to the customers to the investors and. And not just to wait for the government to support I think I believe though all the status can support each other and create that formidable combination that that individual startup can be when we come and join hands forces together. So from our side. We are always always. Ah. Willing to help support or any way help any other startup that require and we believe if even all this current startups are there if they joined together then will be a very very interesting force to reckon with that we have currentlyly and then. So this is the way forward and definitely government today or tomorrow will take a notice government is taking a notice in a big way and the lot of initis are a you's a sign of it. It just that we need lot more work can be done a lot more There is a lot of marching to do that work development. It took from government site. But as we speak slowly steadily that change is happening so it's very welcome change but we start up needs to come together help each other and build ecosystem rather than competing with each other.

58:13.69
Narayan
Yeah, absolutely and again very well put. Thank you so much for spending the time in recording this episode It's been very educated for me as well to see how a company like you you know matures in a country like India for example, getting out and I'm sure that the listeners will also find it. Very interesting. Is there a kind of people who are interested in contacting you either for jobs or even for advice. Um, you know what is the best way of reaching you and if there's also kind of people who you want to reach out to you. What would. So kind of people would be so.

58:52.62
Tushar Jadhav
Yeah, ah, reaching out to me very simple option. You can Linkedin Linkedin is the most in common way are ah other you can email me my first name dot last name at the rate of http://monasterspace.com so toard dot other the rate monus http://space.com is a simply milous or you can email on the website. Also that comes to me itself. So anyway, any one of the option is okay, what kind of people so look well this the business is all about the people. We are always record for the people who are good in the technology who are who are good in selling who are good in the business development who are good in marketing or who are passionate about the hardware who are passionate about some of the software writing a code. Are always open and always looking out always hiring for this kind of a people. So even if you have ah inclination to sell our inclination to build an inclination to you know, solve 1 part problem and stick with a problem for long duration then we are a place to do so. At Mona 2 you will get all the freedom to try new things succeed so whenever someone joins on the first day we just tell them 2 things just don't break out trust and ah, don't get killed apart from that. They have all the freedoms to discuss with each other try new ideas as long as we are doing the work that we do and and we and then make a promise on the day one itself that if you stay with us for long. We'll take care of you. If you want to do another job because of some x y that reason we will be the first one to help you find another job if you want to go to highest studies. We will be right? The best recommendation letter in the world that you possibly can think of and in the and if you stay with us will help you will take care of the. Ah, care of you the best possible we can so we make it very clear upfront that this is a place for you to try new things grow and make the most out of it and enjoy the process. So so any on the people who are listening who are interested in this journey. Always feel free to contact us messengers email us anyway.

01:01:10.83
Narayan
This is fascinating and very well put again to sharp. Thank you so much for taking the time and good luck to the team again.

01:01:17.95
Tushar Jadhav
Thank you that? Thank you there and thank you everybody. It's always fine to talk to you. Thank you so much.